Wednesday, August 8, 2012

Re: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



Note the words "for flights."

Helen
 
 
On 08/08/12, Lyle Cox<LyleCox@funaerosports.com> wrote:
 


But…

 

FAR Part 61.51 describes what is loggable time.

 

 Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

It appears that whenever he is manipulating the controls as the sole maniupulator, OR is the sole occupant (which he said he would be), that would be time that could be logged as PIC.

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:08 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My point is, when we are giving advice, and people are electing to take or not take that advice, it's nice to know what the basis for the advice is.  What experience specifically would give a person confidence that the experience is a valid basis for the advice given?  To simply say "experience" is to basically say, "I'm just pulling this info out of my ass because it sounds good to me."    I know it would be a really cheap and handy way to build flight time, but in this case, I also know what the FARs say.  Does just sitting in the airplane with the engine running ever count as flight time?  Does it ever NOT count as flight time?    Can you give some examples of both, or in your experience does an engine running always count as flight time? 

 

Jim

 

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:12 AM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.





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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



No, in motion is not the same as in flight.  I knew this was what you were thinking when you mentioned insurance originally, but they are not the same.  That is simply an insurance definition to define an insurance liability, not to define what flight time means.  Yes, if you lose control and hit a parked plane while taxiing to the runway for takeoff, you can log it as flight time.  If you do the same thing while taxiing out for a maintenance run, it isn't flight time.  But either way, yes, you were in motion and you owe the person you hit damages.  Apples and oranges as far as logging flight time however.
 
Jim
 
From: Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 

Well…one of my renters managed to taxi my airplane into a parked airplane on the ramp.  Insurance called it "in motion" which is the same as in flight and therefore charged me the higher deductible and the FAA also charged the pilot with "failure to maintain directional control" and made him take remedial training.  That's my experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:08 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

My point is, when we are giving advice, and people are electing to take or not take that advice, it's nice to know what the basis for the advice is.  What experience specifically would give a person confidence that the experience is a valid basis for the advice given?  To simply say "experience" is to basically say, "I'm just pulling this info out of my ass because it sounds good to me."    I know it would be a really cheap and handy way to build flight time, but in this case, I also know what the FARs say.  Does just sitting in the airplane with the engine running ever count as flight time?  Does it ever NOT count as flight time?    Can you give some examples of both, or in your experience does an engine running always count as flight time? 

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:12 AM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.



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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



I forgot to mention.  Gliders is defined in the very next sentence under the one I quoted.  Start of tow to glider coming to a stop after flight.
 
Jim
 
From: Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 

Just curious, Jim.  Do you log your taxi time to the runway and include the takeoff roll and landing roll, then the taxi back to the hangar?  Or do you log wheels up to wheels down?  Years ago, and I mean years ago, flight time was logged as flight time..wheels up to wheels down.  Now it is considered engine start to engine shutdown.  I know, don't ask me about gliders…..lol.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:13 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.



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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



Reference FAR 1.1.  Definition of "flight time":
"Pilot time that commences when an  aircraft moves under its own power for purposes of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 
 
In other words, a typical interpretation of that is from engine start to touchdown when the actual intention is to go flying.  If you have to sit in the hold short for 15 minutes waiting for a break in landing traffic, that still counts as flight time.  When you taxi back to the ramp or hangar after landing, the clock stops when you stop and shut down the engine.  If you have to sit waiting to taxi across an active on the way to the hangar, still counts.
 
Going out to drive an airplane around just to taxi practice or to taxi to the end of the runway to do a maintenance run up is not flight time. 
 
FSDO or OKC will also verify what I have just said if you would like a second opinion.
 
Jim
 
From: Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 

Just curious, Jim.  Do you log your taxi time to the runway and include the takeoff roll and landing roll, then the taxi back to the hangar?  Or do you log wheels up to wheels down?  Years ago, and I mean years ago, flight time was logged as flight time..wheels up to wheels down.  Now it is considered engine start to engine shutdown.  I know, don't ask me about gliders…..lol.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:13 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.



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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



Excerpt from FAR part 1
Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.


From: Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 7:36 AM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 
Just curious, Jim.  Do you log your taxi time to the runway and include the takeoff roll and landing roll, then the taxi back to the hangar?  Or do you log wheels up to wheels down?  Years ago, and I mean years ago, flight time was logged as flight time..wheels up to wheels down.  Now it is considered engine start to engine shutdown.  I know, don't ask me about gliders…..lol.
 
 
 
 
From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lyle Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:13 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 
My basis is experience.
 
From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 
And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  
Jim
 
From: Lyle Cox
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
 
Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.
From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?
 
Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.




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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



Sorry…forgot to give the whole reference

 

FAR Part 61.51 (e)(i) and FAR Part 61.51 (e) (ii)

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:08 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My point is, when we are giving advice, and people are electing to take or not take that advice, it's nice to know what the basis for the advice is.  What experience specifically would give a person confidence that the experience is a valid basis for the advice given?  To simply say "experience" is to basically say, "I'm just pulling this info out of my ass because it sounds good to me."    I know it would be a really cheap and handy way to build flight time, but in this case, I also know what the FARs say.  Does just sitting in the airplane with the engine running ever count as flight time?  Does it ever NOT count as flight time?    Can you give some examples of both, or in your experience does an engine running always count as flight time? 

 

Jim

 

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:12 AM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.



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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?



But…

 

FAR Part 61.51 describes what is loggable time.

 

 Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

It appears that whenever he is manipulating the controls as the sole maniupulator, OR is the sole occupant (which he said he would be), that would be time that could be logged as PIC.

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:08 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My point is, when we are giving advice, and people are electing to take or not take that advice, it's nice to know what the basis for the advice is.  What experience specifically would give a person confidence that the experience is a valid basis for the advice given?  To simply say "experience" is to basically say, "I'm just pulling this info out of my ass because it sounds good to me."    I know it would be a really cheap and handy way to build flight time, but in this case, I also know what the FARs say.  Does just sitting in the airplane with the engine running ever count as flight time?  Does it ever NOT count as flight time?    Can you give some examples of both, or in your experience does an engine running always count as flight time? 

 

Jim

 

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:12 AM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

 

My basis is experience.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

And your basis for this comment is......?  Like, can you cite a legal source?  An FAR, for example.  

Jim

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Let's put it this way………if you have an accident during this taxi time, both your insurance and the FAA will say you were "flying".  I'd log it and note it in the comment section.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rob_waltman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Logging taxi time?

 

Sorry, this is not LSA specific, but I hope I'll get some knowledgeable answers.
I hold a private pilot certificate, and will be flying a Kitfox experimental under LSA rules.
Both the Kitfox and I are being put back into service after a long hiatus. I have a current BFR and tailwheel endorsement.
The airplane had its annual inspection 10 days ago, and I have been taking lessons in Cubs, Champs and a Kitfox-like Aerotek.
I decided I will not try to fly it until I have several hours of taxi testing, to the point that I feel comfortable "driving" it on the ground.
My question is, can/should I log this taxi hours as PIC time? On one hand, this is not flying. On the other, I am gaining proficiency in the ground handling of an aircraft that has a reputation for being very sensitive to control inputs.

Thanks,

Roberto.



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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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