In about two days, I will have an update to my website: www.navalairestates.com. On it will be information about a 'flying club' (LLP) that I'm foming - in SW Florida. I belonged to two such organizations - years ago. One had 7 planes - the other 5. They ranged from a Citibra to a Cessna 310 & a T-34. (military club) If anyone has had expeience in creating such a 'club' - I'd appreciate any imput you have to offer. I don't like to 'reinvent the wheel'. Thank you, Bob McDonagh. Down in Sunny SW Florida.
----- Original Message -----Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 5:52 AMSubject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Digest Number 2511Messages In This Digest (9 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Cajun Wes
- 1b.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Jim Bair
- 1c.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Gary Orpe
- 1d.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Dwayne
- 1e.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Helen Woods
- 1f.
- Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible? From: Peter Walker
- 1g.
- The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the min From: Karsten Keese
- 1h.
- Re: The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the From: pwrsport@ix.netcom.com
- 1i.
- Re: The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the From: Peter Walker
Messages
- 1a.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Cajun Wes" wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com wesleymarceaux
Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:00 am (PST)
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter than usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older heavy metal craft made yesteryear.. but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is no justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed. Even the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and safty features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell for anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an airplane is not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a new horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction along with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the thought..
Cajun Wes
--- On Tue, 2/15/11, misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com >
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 8:17 AM
There has been a lot of discussion, mostly positive, and it has all been interesting, much of it very helpful.
From the Sport Pilot Instructors forum Phil Dietro, Arlynn McMahon, and a few others have discussed the options they have utilized. Thom Riddle has posted some inciteful questions and possible solutions.
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate.
Arlynn has offered to share info regarding how an SPCFI might go about "affordably" operating without the backing of a "regular" flight school. This is not a sarcastic statement.
Phil mentioned the addition of PPC & WS training - are there existing LODAs in force to provide for that training in ELSAs?
Having come up through the ranks of Ultralight to Sport Pilot, I also know many new UL flyers who are desperate for training they can't get.
Our focus is how to go about establishing an LLC and fractional ownership plan centered around ELSA craft & EABs to use for the additional purpose of training SP & UL student pilots; and making this information available to all SPCFIs.
I have priced even the USED (aka- well flown) SLSAs, there aren't many available, and they are still in the $70,000 to $100,000 range.
Not exactly within the "affordable" range of even a school with more than 1 instructor.
There has been response from the NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) that has been on a positive note. They are very interested in working on this solution as well.
As a group, Sport Pilot may simply need to do the same thing that other minorities have done in the past, Stand up, be counted, be recognized, and not take NO for an answer. It will take time. We all realize this. But with more of us working toward the same goal, we will obtain it sooner rather than later.- 1b.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Jim Bair" jimbair@live.com jim_bair
Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:15 am (PST)
I would suspect that mass production and economies of scale make the 2
industries apples and oranges.
Could you cite some specific examples of uncontrolled greed and total lack
of ethics and morality you speak of?
Jim
From: Cajun Wes
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:49 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club"
ELSA possible?
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of
an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles
today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and
engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at
the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest
auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features
required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA
craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on
the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter than
usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern
materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older heavy
metal craft made yesteryear..but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but
uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies
and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is no
justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed. Even
the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and safty
features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell for
anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and
unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an
airplane is not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for
some. When cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity
and the prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a
new horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction
along with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the
old system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the
Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff and
soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over
pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by
the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed
at the thought..
Cajun Wes- 1c.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Gary Orpe" garyo@bak.rr.com garyo263
Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:31 am (PST)
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of an
LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles
today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and
engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at
the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest
auto.. t.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the
same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the
past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self
important chiefs protected by the Government demanding
gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the thought..
Cajun Wes
So I guess you aren't going to get one then, or you know a Robot that can
build it for you real cheap.
Gary Orpe- 1d.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Dwayne" masterdr@yahoo.com masterdr
Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:39 am (PST)
Though I agree with most of what you said, one of the biggest problems manufacturers are facing, are lawsuits.
The Lawsuits civilians place upon aircraft manufacturers is overwhelming. I do not know the percentage of liability cost per airplane is, but I would not be surprised if it is extremely high. Maybe in the 80 percentile for a SWAG?
Even for the AP or IA, there is high risk. If that plane goes down from engine trouble, who is to blame? Who wants answers? Who wants perfection, 100 percent trouble free flights?
And these questions are still pressed upon the manufacturing and maintenance of an airplane, even when it was the pilots fault all along!
Dwayne
Great to hear from ya!
--- On Wed, 2/16/11, Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com >
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 8:49 AM
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter than usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older heavy metal craft made yesteryear.. but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is no justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed. Even the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and safty features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell for anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an airplane is not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a new horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction along with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the thought..
Cajun Wes
--- On Tue, 2/15/11, misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com >
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 8:17 AM
There has been a lot of discussion, mostly positive, and it has all been interesting, much of it very helpful.
From the Sport Pilot Instructors forum Phil Dietro, Arlynn McMahon, and a few others have discussed the options they have utilized. Thom Riddle has posted some inciteful questions and possible solutions.
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate.
Arlynn has offered to share info regarding how an SPCFI might go about "affordably" operating without the backing of a "regular" flight school. This is not a sarcastic statement.
Phil mentioned the addition of PPC & WS training - are there existing LODAs in force to provide for that training in ELSAs?
Having come up through the ranks of Ultralight to Sport Pilot, I also know many new UL flyers who
are desperate for training they can't get.
Our focus is how to go about establishing an LLC and fractional ownership plan centered around ELSA craft & EABs to use for the additional purpose of training SP & UL student pilots; and making this information available to all SPCFIs.
I have priced even the USED (aka- well flown) SLSAs, there aren't many available, and they are still in the $70,000 to $100,000 range.
Not exactly within the "affordable" range of even a school with more than 1 instructor.
There has been response from the NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) that has been on a positive note. They are very interested in working on this solution as well.
As a group, Sport Pilot may simply need to do the same thing that other minorities have done in the past, Stand up, be counted, be recognized, and not take NO for an answer. It will take time. We all realize this. But with more of us working toward the same
goal, we will obtain it sooner rather than later.- 1e.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Helen Woods" Helen_Woods@verizon.net hwoods4421
Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:36 am (PST)
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/ insider/AVWebIns ider_LSAPrices_ 204054-\
1.html
Feb 16, 2011 11:31:21 AM, Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. wrote:com
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the
price of an
LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive
automobiles
today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in
safty and
engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale
today at
the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the
simplest
auto.. t.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just
more of the
same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of
the
past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too
many self
important chiefs protected by the Government demanding
gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the
thought..
Cajun Wes
So I guess you aren't going to get one then, or you know a Robot
that can
build it for you real cheap.
Gary Orpe
--------------------- --------- ------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/Sport_ Aircraft/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/Sport_ Aircraft/ join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
Sport_Aircraft-digest@yahoogrou ps.com
Sport_Aircraft-fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Sport_Aircraft-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/ info/terms/ - 1f.
Re: SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
Posted by: "Peter Walker" peterwalker58@yahoo.com peterwalker58
Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:43 pm (PST)
Hello Compare the numbers A small car like a Toyota Yaris is MANUFACTURED by the million in 5 or more factories world wide The design and tooling is almost the same world wide and shared over millions The biggest LSA builder Cessna BUILDS 300 a year
Peter
--- On Thu, 2/17/11, Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com >
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 1:49 AM
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter than usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older heavy metal craft made yesteryear.. but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is no justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed. Even the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and safty features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell for anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an airplane is not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a new horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction along with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the thought..
Cajun Wes
--- On Tue, 2/15/11, misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: misportpilotrepair <brubakermal@yahoo.com >
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 8:17 AM
There has been a lot of discussion, mostly positive, and it has all been interesting, much of it very helpful.
From the Sport Pilot Instructors forum Phil Dietro, Arlynn McMahon, and a few others have discussed the options they have utilized. Thom Riddle has posted some inciteful questions and possible solutions.
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate.
Arlynn has offered to share info regarding how an SPCFI might go about "affordably" operating without the backing of a "regular" flight school. This is not a sarcastic statement.
Phil mentioned the addition of PPC & WS training - are there existing LODAs in force to provide for that training in ELSAs?
Having come up through the ranks of Ultralight to Sport Pilot, I also know many new UL flyers who
are desperate for training they can't get.
Our focus is how to go about establishing an LLC and fractional ownership plan centered around ELSA craft & EABs to use for the additional purpose of training SP & UL student pilots; and making this information available to all SPCFIs.
I have priced even the USED (aka- well flown) SLSAs, there aren't many available, and they are still in the $70,000 to $100,000 range.
Not exactly within the "affordable" range of even a school with more than 1 instructor.
There has been response from the NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) that has been on a positive note. They are very interested in working on this solution as well.
As a group, Sport Pilot may simply need to do the same thing that other minorities have done in the past, Stand up, be counted, be recognized, and not take NO for an answer. It will take time. We all realize this. But with more of us working toward the same
goal, we will obtain it sooner rather than later.- 1g.
The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the min
Posted by: "Karsten Keese" KarstenKeese@netscape.net karsten.keese
Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:12 pm (PST)
Glad somebody pointed out the legal pitfalls!
It's not only lawsuits, but all the paperwork required for parts and
accessories, which sometimes leads to ridiculous situations where the very
same product in the same packaging costs £ 60 when replaced on an airplane
versus £ 5.75 when bought for a car. The difference? A letter/DIN A4 sized
sheet of paper that confirms that the product may be used on an aircraft.
All the bureaucrats, pencil pushers and clerks who check/verify the
documents must be paid, and so must the administrators who need to justify
their existence by inventing new regulations, controls, formats, etc.,
from time to time. For the manufacturing companies, engineers and
mechanics who need to obtain all the seals, stamps and signatures that are
required in order to be allowed to produce, distribute, sell and
check/maintain the accessories, components and parts of an airplane, the
additional costs have to be passed on to the customer -- which is possible
because airplanes and flying are "either for multi-national corporations
or millionaires who have the money". The 1000% price difference for the
brake pads are just one of many examples.
Nevertheless, car manufacturers are regulated and have to go through all
kinds of tests and verifications in every country as well. This brings us
to the more important factor of economies of scale and scope, which
somebody else mentioned briefly before.
When looking at automobiles, we are looking at a mass market that is
served by only twenty companies in the world (when we look at individual
corporations/industrial trusts, not at brands). American cars would be out
of the market by now, was it not for the tax payer's bail-out in 2008,
which leaves the French, Germans, Italian, Japanese and Koreans. Of course
there are a few luxury and sports cars, but they are merely exotic
footnotes in comparison to the twenty manufacturers that dominate the
world market. Given the development costs of a new car, somewhere between
3-5 billion dollars, car manufacturers cannot afford a real flop, at least
not more than once, because it takes an enormous volume of sales to
recover the costs and make a profit in a highly competitive environment.
In conjunction with technical restrictions like aerodynamics (wind
resistance, not flying :), this is one of the major reasons why
manufacturers don't come up with revolutionary novelties and cars look
more and more the same -- the risk of failure is too high for daring
experiments. On the bright side, the costs of research & development,
production, marketing and so on are divided among hundreds of thousands of
customers around the globe, so each driver only pays a tiny amount of the
fixed and sunk costs.
With airplanes, the situation is the other way round. It appears as if
anybody who ever studied a couple semesters of aeronautical engineering
sooner or later starts hammering together their own experimental, light,
sports or however-you-want-to-call- it aircraft. There are literally
hundreds of small and smallest garage manufacturers that sell kits, plans,
airplanes or mixes thereof, in more countries than ever had a car
production throughout history. When visiting their websites, these guys
proudly announce that 5 of their models are flying and another 2 being
built around the globe. This means nothing more and nothing less than 7
customers maintaining the entire enterprise, from paying for the company's
premises (rent, gas, electricity) to the engineers' and secretary's
salaries, the owners profit expectations, and so on.
Furthermore, since there are not enough sheep for too many wolves, all the
hundreds or thousands of tiny 'wing-plumbers' lack the intellectual and
final resources to invest in and carry out the research & development
necessary to take advantage of all the new materials, compounds,
gluing/screwing/bonding techniques, electronic and computer devices, etc.,
that are discovered and developed every day. In fact, the handful of
employees per company couldn't even read all the technical and scientific
publications that become available every day even if they were delivered
to their doorsteps for free. The result can be seen clearly: most of the
thousands of airplanes out there are pretty much the same, look pretty
much the same and offer rather primitive comfort and features in
comparison to what one would expect in a congruently priced automobile
(with the exception of corporate business jets, of course). Since they are
all designed and manufactured by separate entities, however, they all have
to go through all the steps for tests, certifications and permissions,
they all need to negotiate separately with providers and distributors,
airports, and so on. Of course it's just the umptienth iteration of the
same wing profile, combination of instruments, motor/navigation/...
configuration that we have seen a thousand times before, but still.
'Everyone for himself' leads to a non-realization of economies of scope
(investigation, research & development, negotiation, overhead), to
dragging a leg in terms of technological progress, comfort, convenience,
features and so on. It also leads to the non-realization of economies of
scale, because the numbers produced of each model do not justify
investments in automated production lines featuring robots like the car
industry uses them, leading to high costs per piece and a ton of sunk,
fixed and production costs on the price tag of each plane, divided among
very few customers who can afford the luxury. This keeps many people from
thinking about getting a pilot licence in the first place; why would you
invest a couple dozen thousand dollars for books, videos, classes and
training if you will never be able to afford to use it afterwards, at
least not as long as the wife has a say in the matter? In a vicious
circle, reducing the number of potential customers obviously leads to a
reduction of the number of actual customers, which keeps the prices high,
which leads to fewer customers ...
When asked about aviation, most people think of Airbus, Boeing, commercial
airlines and the military. Maybe there are a couple who remember the names
of Bell, Cessna and Piper, but that's about it. Since the masses fly
economy and since the results of flight accidents are so devastating and
spectacular, while car accidents are hardly reported unless it's an
aristocratic blonde with her lover in Paris, the masses demand --
rightfully -- that safety should come as close to 100% as possible. We can
also assume that, due to the fact that the high costs inevitably give
flying an elitist image, many think that "the fewer of those spoiled,
drunken millionaires are fooling around up there, the less can fall on my
childrens' heads". That's exaggerated, but together with some unconscious
envy à la "I'm stuck in traffic, so why should these rich guys get a
break?", the overwhelming majority of the election cattle does probably
not consider general, private aviation a necessity, let alone a priority.
Being honest, there can be no denying that the noise, fuel consumption,
surface sealing, etc., etc., are justified and valid concerns, which the
aviation industry has yet to offer a satisfying answer to.
The very limited number of experimental/light/sports/ ... aircraft and
their pilots/mechanics/owners has an impact on the political weight in the
public discussion. Investments in infrastructure or, heaven forbid, added
comfort and convenience, pledges for less bureaucracy and a reasonable
relation between prices and paperwork have a hard time to get heard in the
overwhelming noise of so many other issues that so many more people are
affected by. If the masses take notice at all, it's usually due to some
multinational corporation's lobbying to push some outrageous, scandalous
privilege for their own benefit through legislation. The hundreds or
thousands of small manufacturers and stakeholders cannot only not keep up
with the deep pockets of the dozen big ones, they also get hit by the
negative badwill caused by the scandalous initiatives of corporate
white-collar criminals and their political lackeys. Scattered and
splintered into hundreds and thousands of individuals, sport pilots lack
the money, organization and time to differentiate themselves and promote
their own interests, which are seldom the same as those that the big guys
try to enforce on the public.
Possible Approaches towards a Solution
A theoretical first step to more efficiency might consist in a
systematization of knowledge, for instance a database of engineering and
technical data, so that the same motor, wing profile, instrument, etc.,
etc, isn't tested and submitted for permission for the 354678th time. It
would also help to lower production costs if designers could just
'assemble' the umptienth reiteration of their next plane from what has
already been done a hundred times before. Obviously, nobody wants to work
for free, so expecting that manufacturers enter their data into such a
database for free is somewhat idealistic.
The next level might consist in manufacturers working together in
cooperations, for instance ten small kit cutters paying a specialist in
material techniques or the like. Given that many engineers are not blessed
with language or people skills, this might require more negotiating and
work ethos than what we encounter in today's working place in practice.
Nevertheless, based on personal connections established at air shows or
the like, a good lawyer and some mutual goodwill might pave the way for a
couple of these cooperations.
Ultimately, though, the general aviation industry will have to go through
a process that all industries go through when the market conditions become
intense, technological progress slower or more expensive and external
pressures (legal, ecological, technical) tougher: consolidation.
In order to grab the attention of larger parts of the population, larger
parts of the population need to develop an interest in flying. To make the
elitist hobby accessible, prices must come down while safety,
organization, comfort and convenience need to be improved. Given it's
medical requirements and the consequences of accidents, nobody wants a
traffic congestion in the air as we have it on the ground, but there is
still a lot of potential that is not and will not be realized in the
current situation with hundreds of garage manufacturers. With technical
progress in so many different areas (synthetic fuels, compound/synthetic
materials and their properties and reactions, computation, electronics,
law, ecology) it will become more and more difficult for individualists to
compete with larger teams.
Those who are smart will start looking for cooperations with like-minded
partners rather sooner than later, in order to combine their talents and
strengths while balancing their weaknesses. Not every genius engineer is
good at marketing and vice versa. A reduced number of me-too products will
lead to higher volumes of sales for fewer but more distinguishable models.
Instead of having to concentrate on the essentials like getting a plane up
in the air and through regulation, more specialized designers and
engineers can work together on the same model, improving interior design,
comfort and convenience, noise and energy consumption like we see in the
car or computer industry. New ideas and approaches can only blossom when
people think outside the box, which is only possible when the daily bread
and butter is accounted for. From interior designers to sound engineers,
from "business during flight" experts to electrical, light, computer,
network and communication specialists, a leap ahead in aviation can only
occur when it's no longer just about sticking a motor into a tube and
screwing a wing to it. New markets will only emerge if private flying is
competitive with cars, subways, busses and high-speed trains from a
business perspective, or luxurious, comfortable, convenient, fun and
entertaining from a hobby point of view.
These challenges cannot be mastered in the current multitude of nearly
identical, rudimentary and rather basic products. Mergers and acquisitions
will eventually occur, as it is a fundamental law of economics that any
maturing industry moves from many small and week contestants to a few
dozen bigger, stronger competitors. Leading the pack is usually better
than following behind -- it remains to be seen which role the current
manufacturers of experimental, light and sports aircraft prefer.
Sorry for
the long sermon,
KARSTEN
KEESE
On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:33:05 -0600, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com > wrote:
Though I agree with most of what you said, one of the biggest problems
manufacturers are facing, are lawsuits.
The Lawsuits civilians place upon aircraft manufacturers is
overwhelming. I do not know the percentage of liability cost per airplane
is, but I would not be surprised if it is extremely high. Maybe in the 80
percentile for a SWAG?
Even for the AP or IA, there is high risk. If that plane goes down
from engine trouble, who is to blame? Who wants answers? Who wants
perfection, 100 percent trouble free flights?
And these questions are still pressed upon the manufacturing and
maintenance of an airplane, even when it was the pilots fault all along!
Dwayne
--- On Wed, 2/16/11, Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com >
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club"
ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 8:49 AM
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of
an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles
today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and
engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at
the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest
auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features
required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA
craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on
the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter
than usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of
modern materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older
heavy metal craft made yesteryear..but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but
uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies
and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is
no justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed.
Even the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and
safty features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell
for anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and
unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an airplane is
not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When
cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the
prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a new
horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction along
with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old
system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the
Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff
and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over
pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by
the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and
disappointed at the thought..
Cajun
Wes
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.Opera.com/mail/ - 1h.
Re: The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the
Posted by: "pwrsport@ix.netcom.com" pwrsport@ix.netcom.com pwrsport
Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:44 pm (PST)
body{font-size:10pt;font- family:arial, sans-serif; background- color\
:#ffffff;color:black;}p{ margin:0px; }
Excellent. . . !
Ed Snyder
-----Original Message-----
From: Karsten Keese
Sent: Feb 16, 2011 1:29 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group The crowded General
Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the minor Players
"ZZZbody { font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-size:13px" }
Glad somebody pointed out the legal pitfalls!
It's not only lawsuits, but all the paperwork required for parts
and accessories, which sometimes leads to ridiculous situations
where the very same product in the same packaging costs £ 60
when replaced on an airplane versus £ 5.75 when bought for a
car. The difference? A letter/DIN A4 sized sheet of paper that
confirms that the product may be used on an aircraft. All the
bureaucrats, pencil pushers and clerks who check/verify the
documents must be paid, and so must the administrators who need
to justify their existence by inventing new regulations,
controls, formats, etc., from time to time. For the manufacturing
companies, engineers and mechanics who need to obtain all the
seals, stamps and signatures that are required in order to be
allowed to produce, distribute, sell and check/maintain the
accessories, components and parts of an airplane, the additional
costs have to be passed on to the customer -- which is possible
because airplanes and flying are "either for multi-national
corporations or millionaires who have the money". The 1000% price
difference for the brake pads are just one of many examples.
Nevertheless, car manufacturers are regulated and have to go
through all kinds of tests and verifications in every country as
well. This brings us to the more important factor of economies of
scale and scope, which somebody else mentioned briefly before.
When looking at automobiles, we are looking at a mass market that
is served by only twenty companies in the world (when we look at
individual corporations/industrial trusts, not at brands).
American cars would be out of the market by now, was it not for
the tax payer's bail-out in 2008, which leaves the French,
Germans, Italian, Japanese and Koreans. Of course there are a few
luxury and sports cars, but they are merely exotic footnotes in
comparison to the twenty manufacturers that dominate the world
market. Given the development costs of a new car, somewhere
between 3-5 billion dollars, car manufacturers cannot afford a
real flop, at least not more than once, because it takes an
enormous volume of sales to recover the costs and make a profit
in a highly competitive environment. In conjunction with
technical restrictions like aerodynamics (wind resistance, not
flying :), this is one of the major reasons why manufacturers
don't come up with revolutionary novelties and cars look more and
more the same -- the risk of failure is too high for daring
experiments. On the bright side, the costs of research &
development, production, marketing and so on are divided among
hundreds of thousands of customers around the globe, so each
driver only pays a tiny amount of the fixed and sunk costs.
With airplanes, the situation is the other way round. It appears
as if anybody who ever studied a couple semesters of aeronautical
engineering sooner or later starts hammering together their own
experimental, light, sports or however-you-want-to-call- it
aircraft. There are literally hundreds of small and smallest
garage manufacturers that sell kits, plans, airplanes or mixes
thereof, in more countries than ever had a car production
throughout history. When visiting their websites, these guys
proudly announce that 5 of their models are flying and another 2
being built around the globe. This means nothing more and nothing
less than 7 customers maintaining the entire enterprise, from
paying for the company's premises (rent, gas, electricity) to the
engineers' and secretary's salaries, the owners profit
expectations, and so on.
Furthermore, since there are not enough sheep for too many
wolves, all the hundreds or thousands of tiny 'wing-plumbers'
lack the intellectual and final resources to invest in and carry
out the research & development necessary to take advantage of all
the new materials, compounds, gluing/screwing/bonding techniques,
electronic and computer devices, etc., that are discovered and
developed every day. In fact, the handful of employees per
company couldn't even read all the technical and scientific
publications that become available every day even if they were
delivered to their doorsteps for free. The result can be seen
clearly: most of the thousands of airplanes out there are pretty
much the same, look pretty much the same and offer rather
primitive comfort and features in comparison to what one would
expect in a congruently priced automobile (with the exception of
corporate business jets, of course). Since they are all designed
and manufactured by separate entities, however, they all have to
go through all the steps for tests, certifications and
permissions, they all need to negotiate separately with providers
and distributors, airports, and so on. Of course it's just the
umptienth iteration of the same wing profile, combination of
instruments, motor/navigation/... configuration that we have seen
a thousand times before, but still.
'Everyone for himself' leads to a non-realization of economies of
scope (investigation, research & development, negotiation,
overhead), to dragging a leg in terms of technological progress,
comfort, convenience, features and so on. It also leads to the
non-realization of economies of scale, because the numbers
produced of each model do not justify investments in automated
production lines featuring robots like the car industry uses
them, leading to high costs per piece and a ton of sunk, fixed
and production costs on the price tag of each plane, divided
among very few customers who can afford the luxury. This keeps
many people from thinking about getting a pilot licence in the
first place; why would you invest a couple dozen thousand dollars
for books, videos, classes and training if you will never be able
to afford to use it afterwards, at least not as long as the wife
has a say in the matter? In a vicious circle, reducing the number
of potential customers obviously leads to a reduction of the
number of actual customers, which keeps the prices high, which
leads to fewer customers ...
When asked about aviation, most people think of Airbus, Boeing,
commercial airlines and the military. Maybe there are a couple
who remember the names of Bell, Cessna and Piper, but that's
about it. Since the masses fly economy and since the results of
flight accidents are so devastating and spectacular, while car
accidents are hardly reported unless it's an aristocratic blonde
with her lover in Paris, the masses demand -- rightfully -- that
safety should come as close to 100% as possible. We can also
assume that, due to the fact that the high costs inevitably give
flying an elitist image, many think that "the fewer of those
spoiled, drunken millionaires are fooling around up there, the
less can fall on my childrens' heads". That's exaggerated, but
together with some unconscious envy à la "I'm stuck in
traffic, so why should these rich guys get a break?", the
overwhelming majority of the election cattle does probably not
consider general, private aviation a necessity, let alone a
priority. Being honest, there can be no denying that the noise,
fuel consumption, surface sealing, etc., etc., are justified and
valid concerns, which the aviation industry has yet to offer a
satisfying answer to.
The very limited number of experimental/light/sports/ ... aircraft
and their pilots/mechanics/owners has an impact on the political
weight in the public discussion. Investments in infrastructure
or, heaven forbid, added comfort and convenience, pledges for
less bureaucracy and a reasonable relation between prices and
paperwork have a hard time to get heard in the overwhelming noise
of so many other issues that so many more people are affected by.
If the masses take notice at all, it's usually due to some
multinational corporation's lobbying to push some outrageous,
scandalous privilege for their own benefit through legislation.
The hundreds or thousands of small manufacturers and stakeholders
cannot only not keep up with the deep pockets of the dozen big
ones, they also get hit by the negative badwill caused by the
scandalous initiatives of corporate white-collar criminals and
their political lackeys. Scattered and splintered into hundreds
and thousands of individuals, sport pilots lack the money,
organization and time to differentiate themselves and promote
their own interests, which are seldom the same as those that the
big guys try to enforce on the public.
Possible Approaches towards a Solution
A theoretical first step to more efficiency might consist in a
systematization of knowledge, for instance a database of
engineering and technical data, so that the same motor, wing
profile, instrument, etc., etc, isn't tested and submitted for
permission for the 354678th time. It would also help to lower
production costs if designers could just 'assemble' the umptienth
reiteration of their next plane from what has already been done a
hundred times before. Obviously, nobody wants to work for free,
so expecting that manufacturers enter their data into such a
database for free is somewhat idealistic.
The next level might consist in manufacturers working together in
cooperations, for instance ten small kit cutters paying a
specialist in material techniques or the like. Given that many
engineers are not blessed with language or people skills, this
might require more negotiating and work ethos than what we
encounter in today's working place in practice. Nevertheless,
based on personal connections established at air shows or the
like, a good lawyer and some mutual goodwill might pave the way
for a couple of these cooperations.
Ultimately, though, the general aviation industry will have to go
through a process that all industries go through when the market
conditions become intense, technological progress slower or more
expensive and external pressures (legal, ecological, technical)
tougher: consolidation.
In order to grab the attention of larger parts of the population,
larger parts of the population need to develop an interest in
flying. To make the elitist hobby accessible, prices must come
down while safety, organization, comfort and convenience need to
be improved. Given it's medical requirements and the consequences
of accidents, nobody wants a traffic congestion in the air as we
have it on the ground, but there is still a lot of potential that
is not and will not be realized in the current situation with
hundreds of garage manufacturers. With technical progress in so
many different areas (synthetic fuels, compound/synthetic
materials and their properties and reactions, computation,
electronics, law, ecology) it will become more and more difficult
for individualists to compete with larger teams.
Those who are smart will start looking for cooperations with
like-minded partners rather sooner than later, in order to
combine their talents and strengths while balancing their
weaknesses. Not every genius engineer is good at marketing and
vice versa. A reduced number of me-too products will lead to
higher volumes of sales for fewer but more distinguishable
models. Instead of having to concentrate on the essentials like
getting a plane up in the air and through regulation, more
specialized designers and engineers can work together on the same
model, improving interior design, comfort and convenience, noise
and energy consumption like we see in the car or computer
industry. New ideas and approaches can only blossom when people
think outside the box, which is only possible when the daily
bread and butter is accounted for. From interior designers to
sound engineers, from "business during flight" experts to
electrical, light, computer, network and communication
specialists, a leap ahead in aviation can only occur when it's no
longer just about sticking a motor into a tube and screwing a
wing to it. New markets will only emerge if private flying is
competitive with cars, subways, busses and high-speed trains from
a business perspective, or luxurious, comfortable, convenient,
fun and entertaining from a hobby point of view.
These challenges cannot be mastered in the current multitude of
nearly identical, rudimentary and rather basic products. Mergers
and acquisitions will eventually occur, as it is a fundamental
law of economics that any maturing industry moves from many small
and week contestants to a few dozen bigger, stronger competitors.
Leading the pack is usually better than following behind -- it
remains to be seen which role the current manufacturers of
experimental, light and sports aircraft prefer.
Sorry for the long sermon,
KARSTEN KEESE
On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:33:05 -0600, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com >
wrote:
Though I agree with most of what you said, one of the biggest
problems manufacturers are facing, are lawsuits.
The Lawsuits civilians place upon aircraft manufacturers is
overwhelming. I do not know the percentage of liability cost per
airplane is, but I would not be surprised if it is extremely
high. Maybe in the 80 percentile for a SWAG?
Even for the AP or IA, there is high risk. If that plane goes
down from engine trouble, who is to blame? Who wants answers?
Who wants perfection, 100 percent trouble free flights?
And these questions are still pressed upon the manufacturing
and maintenance of an airplane, even when it was the pilots fault
all along!
Dwayne
--- On Wed, 2/16/11, Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com >
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a
"club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 8:49 AM
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at
the price of an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least
expensive automobiles today, I see a big difference in price and
a big difference in safty and engineering.. There is no way that
any of the LSA craft for sale today at the rediculas prices
listed, can come close to the value of the simplest auto.. Yet
these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features
required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make
money. An LSA craft is nothing different in any way than any
other aircraft available on the market today,,with the
exception,, that it is just a little lighter than usual and not
as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern
materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the
older heavy metal craft made yesteryear..but I wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but
uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the
companies and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for
design,, there is no justification for the price of these craft,
other than those listed. Even the lightest car out weights any
LSA craft and more design work and safty features are included in
the price. Yet none of these autos sell for anywhere close to
$70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and unnecessary
models that fan the ego. One might say that Cars are a
modern day necessity and an airplane is not but a toy made for
fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When cars were
first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the
prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price
of a new horse and wagon of the day.. Looking at the price
of an LSA and the price of instruction along with it's
incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old
system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is
the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same
old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed
by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self
important chiefs protected by the Government demanding
gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the
thought..
Cajun Wes
-- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
http://www.Opera.com/mail/ <http://www.opera.com/mail/ >- 1i.
Re: The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the
Posted by: "Peter Walker" peterwalker58@yahoo.com peterwalker58
Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:27 pm (PST)
HelloThe American Special Light Sport (SLSA) address lots of the legalese The regulations outline the minimum requirements and the manufacturer has to meet them The engine has for example a technical requirement of dual ignition with 2 plugs per cylinder and if injected can run if any sensor fails There is no mandated test procedure or technical requirements for the test facility Engine durability is of a similar brief description
Similarly for the airframe if the manufacturer wants to run an Ipod with a suite of programs as basic instrumentation its acceptable There is no requirement for TSOed instruments That becomes an issue if the plane is subsequently submitted for a higher rating other than its primary rating of day VFRFrom my memory Correct me if im wrongPeter
--- On Thu, 2/17/11, Karsten Keese <KarstenKeese@netscape. > wrote:net
From: Karsten Keese <KarstenKeese@netscape. >net
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group The crowded General Aviation Market needs a Consolidation of the minor Players
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 7:29 AM
#yiv209244663
Glad somebody pointed out the legal pitfalls!It's not only lawsuits, but all the paperwork required for parts and accessories, which sometimes leads to ridiculous situations where the very same product in the same packaging costs £ 60 when replaced on an airplane versus £ 5.75 when bought for a car. The difference? A letter/DIN A4 sized sheet of paper that confirms that the product may be used on an aircraft. All the bureaucrats, pencil pushers and clerks who check/verify the documents must be paid, and so must the administrators who need to justify their existence by inventing new regulations, controls, formats, etc., from time to time. For the manufacturing companies, engineers and mechanics who need to obtain all the seals, stamps and signatures that are required in order to be allowed to produce, distribute, sell and check/maintain the accessories, components and parts of an airplane, the additional costs have to be passed on to the customer --
which is possible because airplanes and flying are "either for multi-national corporations or millionaires who have the money". The 1000% price difference for the brake pads are just one of many examples.Nevertheless, car manufacturers are regulated and have to go through all kinds of tests and verifications in every country as well. This brings us to the more important factor of economies of scale and scope, which somebody else mentioned briefly before.When looking at automobiles, we are looking at a mass market that is served by only twenty companies in the world (when we look at individual corporations/ industrial trusts, not at brands). American cars would be out of the market by now, was it not for the tax payer's bail-out in 2008, which leaves the French, Germans, Italian, Japanese and Koreans. Of course there are a few luxury and sports cars, but they are merely exotic footnotes in comparison to the twenty manufacturers that dominate the world
market. Given the development costs of a new car, somewhere between 3-5 billion dollars, car manufacturers cannot afford a real flop, at least not more than once, because it takes an enormous volume of sales to recover the costs and make a profit in a highly competitive environment. In conjunction with technical restrictions like aerodynamics (wind resistance, not flying :), this is one of the major reasons why manufacturers don't come up with revolutionary novelties and cars look more and more the same -- the risk of failure is too high for daring experiments. On the bright side, the costs of research & development, production, marketing and so on are divided among hundreds of thousands of customers around the globe, so each driver only pays a tiny amount of the fixed and sunk costs.With airplanes, the situation is the other way round. It appears as if anybody who ever studied a couple semesters of aeronautical engineering sooner or later starts
hammering together their own experimental, light, sports or however-you-want-to-call- it aircraft. There are literally hundreds of small and smallest garage manufacturers that sell kits, plans, airplanes or mixes thereof, in more countries than ever had a car production throughout history. When visiting their websites, these guys proudly announce that 5 of their models are flying and another 2 being built around the globe. This means nothing more and nothing less than 7 customers maintaining the entire enterprise, from paying for the company's premises (rent, gas, electricity) to the engineers' and secretary's salaries, the owners profit expectations, and so on.Furthermore, since there are not enough sheep for too many wolves, all the hundreds or thousands of tiny 'wing-plumbers' lack the intellectual and final resources to invest in and carry out the research & development necessary to take advantage of all the new materials, compounds,
gluing/screwing/bonding techniques, electronic and computer devices, etc., that are discovered and developed every day. In fact, the handful of employees per company couldn't even read all the technical and scientific publications that become available every day even if they were delivered to their doorsteps for free. The result can be seen clearly: most of the thousands of airplanes out there are pretty much the same, look pretty much the same and offer rather primitive comfort and features in comparison to what one would expect in a congruently priced automobile (with the exception of corporate business jets, of course). Since they are all designed and manufactured by separate entities, however, they all have to go through all the steps for tests, certifications and permissions, they all need to negotiate separately with providers and distributors, airports, and so on. Of course it's just the umptienth iteration of the same wing profile, combination
of instruments, motor/navigation/... configuration that we have seen a thousand times before, but still.'Everyone for himself' leads to a non-realization of economies of scope (investigation, research & development, negotiation, overhead), to dragging a leg in terms of technological progress, comfort, convenience, features and so on. It also leads to the non-realization of economies of scale, because the numbers produced of each model do not justify investments in automated production lines featuring robots like the car industry uses them, leading to high costs per piece and a ton of sunk, fixed and production costs on the price tag of each plane, divided among very few customers who can afford the luxury. This keeps many people from thinking about getting a pilot licence in the first place; why would you invest a couple dozen thousand dollars for books, videos, classes and training if you will never be able to afford to use it afterwards, at least not
as long as the wife has a say in the matter? In a vicious circle, reducing the number of potential customers obviously leads to a reduction of the number of actual customers, which keeps the prices high, which leads to fewer customers ...When asked about aviation, most people think of Airbus, Boeing, commercial airlines and the military. Maybe there are a couple who remember the names of Bell, Cessna and Piper, but that's about it. Since the masses fly economy and since the results of flight accidents are so devastating and spectacular, while car accidents are hardly reported unless it's an aristocratic blonde with her lover in Paris, the masses demand -- rightfully -- that safety should come as close to 100% as possible. We can also assume that, due to the fact that the high costs inevitably give flying an elitist image, many think that "the fewer of those spoiled, drunken millionaires are fooling around up there, the less can fall on my childrens'
heads". That's exaggerated, but together with some unconscious envy à la "I'm stuck in traffic, so why should these rich guys get a break?", the overwhelming majority of the election cattle does probably not consider general, private aviation a necessity, let alone a priority. Being honest, there can be no denying that the noise, fuel consumption, surface sealing, etc., etc., are justified and valid concerns, which the aviation industry has yet to offer a satisfying answer to.The very limited number of experimental/light/sports/ ... aircraft and their pilots/mechanics/ owners has an impact on the political weight in the public discussion. Investments in infrastructure or, heaven forbid, added comfort and convenience, pledges for less bureaucracy and a reasonable relation between prices and paperwork have a hard time to get heard in the overwhelming noise of so many other issues that so many more people are affected by. If the masses take notice at all,
it's usually due to some multinational corporation's lobbying to push some outrageous, scandalous privilege for their own benefit through legislation. The hundreds or thousands of small manufacturers and stakeholders cannot only not keep up with the deep pockets of the dozen big ones, they also get hit by the negative badwill caused by the scandalous initiatives of corporate white-collar criminals and their political lackeys. Scattered and splintered into hundreds and thousands of individuals, sport pilots lack the money, organization and time to differentiate themselves and promote their own interests, which are seldom the same as those that the big guys try to enforce on the public.
Possible Approaches towards a SolutionA theoretical first step to more efficiency might consist in a systematization of knowledge, for instance a database of engineering and technical data, so that the same motor, wing profile, instrument, etc., etc, isn't tested and submitted for permission for the 354678th time. It would also help to lower production costs if designers could just 'assemble' the umptienth reiteration of their next plane from what has already been done a hundred times before. Obviously, nobody wants to work for free, so expecting that manufacturers enter their data into such a database for free is somewhat idealistic.The next level might consist in manufacturers working together in cooperations, for instance ten small kit cutters paying a specialist in material techniques or the like. Given that many engineers are not blessed with language or people skills, this might require more negotiating and work ethos than what we encounter in
today's working place in practice. Nevertheless, based on personal connections established at air shows or the like, a good lawyer and some mutual goodwill might pave the way for a couple of these cooperations.Ultimately, though, the general aviation industry will have to go through a process that all industries go through when the market conditions become intense, technological progress slower or more expensive and external pressures (legal, ecological, technical) tougher: consolidation. In order to grab the attention of larger parts of the population, larger parts of the population need to develop an interest in flying. To make the elitist hobby accessible, prices must come down while safety, organization, comfort and convenience need to be improved. Given it's medical requirements and the consequences of accidents, nobody wants a traffic congestion in the air as we have it on the ground, but there is still a lot of potential that is not and will not
be realized in the current situation with hundreds of garage manufacturers. With technical progress in so many different areas (synthetic fuels, compound/synthetic materials and their properties and reactions, computation, electronics, law, ecology) it will become more and more difficult for individualists to compete with larger teams.Those who are smart will start looking for cooperations with like-minded partners rather sooner than later, in order to combine their talents and strengths while balancing their weaknesses. Not every genius engineer is good at marketing and vice versa. A reduced number of me-too products will lead to higher volumes of sales for fewer but more distinguishable models. Instead of having to concentrate on the essentials like getting a plane up in the air and through regulation, more specialized designers and engineers can work together on the same model, improving interior design, comfort and convenience, noise and energy
consumption like we see in the car or computer industry. New ideas and approaches can only blossom when people think outside the box, which is only possible when the daily bread and butter is accounted for. From interior designers to sound engineers, from "business during flight" experts to electrical, light, computer, network and communication specialists, a leap ahead in aviation can only occur when it's no longer just about sticking a motor into a tube and screwing a wing to it. New markets will only emerge if private flying is competitive with cars, subways, busses and high-speed trains from a business perspective, or luxurious, comfortable, convenient, fun and entertaining from a hobby point of view.These challenges cannot be mastered in the current multitude of nearly identical, rudimentary and rather basic products. Mergers and acquisitions will eventually occur, as it is a fundamental law of economics that any maturing industry moves from many
small and week contestants to a few dozen bigger, stronger competitors. Leading the pack is usually better than following behind -- it remains to be seen which role the current manufacturers of experimental, light and sports aircraft prefer.
Sorry for the long sermon, KARSTEN KEESE
On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:33:05 -0600, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com > wrote:
Though I agree with most of what you said, one of the biggest problems manufacturers are facing, are lawsuits.
The Lawsuits civilians place upon aircraft manufacturers is overwhelming. I do not know the percentage of liability cost per airplane is, but I would not be surprised if it is extremely high. Maybe in the 80 percentile for a SWAG?
Even for the AP or IA, there is high risk. If that plane goes down from engine trouble, who is to blame? Who wants answers? Who wants perfection, 100 percent trouble free flights?
And these questions are still pressed upon the manufacturing and maintenance of an airplane, even when it was the pilots fault all
along!
Dwayne
--- On Wed, 2/16/11, Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com > wrote:From: Cajun Wes <wesleymarceaux@yahoo.com >
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group SPL training - is a "club" ELSA possible?
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 8:49 AM
Ya Know??, I may be wrong in my thinking but, looking at the price of an LSA and looking at the price of one of the least expensive automobiles today, I see a big difference in price and a big difference in safty and engineering.. There is no way that any of the LSA craft for sale today at the rediculas prices listed, can come close to the value of the simplest auto.. Yet these simple autos must meet all the standard safty features required by the Federal Government. Yet these companies make money. An LSA craft is nothing different in any way than any other aircraft available on the market today,,with the exception,, that it is just a little lighter than usual and not as advanced..Actually speaking ,,they are made of modern materials that are supposed to be as safe or better than the older heavy metal craft made yesteryear.. but I
wonder.?
Looking at the prices of these LSA craft,,I see nothing but uncontroled greed and a total lack of ethics and morality by the companies and those who sell them. Pound for pound and design for design,, there is no justification for the price of these craft, other than those listed. Even the lightest car out weights any LSA craft and more design work and safty features are included in the price. Yet none of these autos sell for anywhere close to $70 thousand dollars unless one goes to exotic and unnecessary models that fan the ego.
One might say that Cars are a modern day necessity and an airplane is not but a toy made for fun.. I would say that is not true for some. When cars were first introduced they were far from being a necessity and the prices Mr. Ford asked for was only a little more than the price of a new horse and wagon of the day..
Looking at the price of an LSA and the price of instruction along with it's incedental cost,,, it has turned into nothing more than the old system that existed before the Ultralight movement.. So what is the Advantage here?? None I'd say,,just more of the same old,same old stuff and soon even LSA's will be a thing of the past..Killed by Greed and over pricing,,,over controlled and too many self important chiefs protected by the Government demanding gratuity............. I am saddened and disappointed at the thought..
Cajun Wes-- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.Opera.com/mail/ Need to Reply?Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__._,_.___
No comments:
Post a Comment