Saturday, February 15, 2014

Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna



This is correct Dave. . .
The Skycatcher that spun because of aft CG went down about 3 miles from my house.

 
Definition of a Good Salesman: Screws you and you don't know it.


Definition of a Superb Salesman: You think you Screwed him!!!

From: "DJfawcett26@aol.com" <DJfawcett26@aol.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna

 
For clarification, avgas is 6 lb per gallon.  Useful load is defined as gross weight minus empty weight.  That being said, you need to recalculated your numbers. More importantly, the LSA class was and is not intended to support folks that are 300 lb plus (almost 25% of the gross weight for 1 person!).  You need to look at Part 23 aircraft.
 
The Skycatcher can support 2-200 lb folks plus 12 gallons of gas.  Given the class, that is not all that bad.
 
As for the unrecoverable spin being the result of being tail heavy, that was not the case.  The spin was being conducted in the aft range of the cg.  The failure of spin recovery was to due to inadequate rudder authority, which was corrected on subsequent aircraft - i.e. - added ventral and rudder area.
 
Best Regards,
 
Dave
 
In a message dated 2/14/2014 2:53:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rkwill@lewiscounty.com writes:
The max TO weight is 1340 pounds
the empty weight of the standard model is 843 pounds
The fuel capacity is 24 gal * 6.25 pounds is  ~150 pounds
so useful load is 347 pounds.

Most people, now a days, are 200-250 pounds.
I.E. there is not enough payload for two typical people.
And with my 310 pounds, there is 37 pounds for the instructor.

Unfortunately, Cessna seems to be using the 'standard individual weight of a
male adult person, as defined by the FnAA  Rather than the reality.

I'm not familiar with the CG range, but very likely, a full payload (347 pounds
+ full fuel would result in a tail heavy condition.
(remember the testing where the test pilot could not get the plane out of a spin
because it is too tail heavy?
 




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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna



 Excellent poing Hellen!

I agree. . .

 
Definition of a Good Salesman: Screws you and you don't know it.


Definition of a Superb Salesman: You think you Screwed him!!!

From: Helen Woods <Helen_Woods@verizon.net>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna

 
Maybe, but just remember, there is no "growing market," just a "predicted market."  If you ask me, this is just the next big "dot com bubble."

Helen


On 2/13/2014 6:13 PM, rckchp@comcast.net wrote:
I would not be surprised if/when Cessna sells off the 162 to Chinese ownership that it continues in production there to serve the growing market on that side of the world.........the useful load may be acceptable there.......

From: "Bob Comperini" <bob@fly-ul.com>

 
Don't forget too, that late in the game, they changed their manufacturing location to China, which didn't give people a warm feeling either..........


Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com






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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group So much for Cessna



  I think you missed what I was comparing. . ..
I was comparing the economics of owning a airplane. 
I was also comparing the economics of what a GA license vs a LSP license can do.
I was also comparing the kind of folks that can afford to fly by saving, compared to those who can afford to fly with extra money to waste.

A SPL is a very limited license. . .It is a daytime, limited speed, one passenger license.
Not very many people will spend 80 to 100 thousand on a airplane just for its limitations, unless they have money to waste.

A 150?  that is a GA airplane only. .  You can't fly one with a SPL, it is to heavy.  thus, you can 't compare it with a SP plane. 
the Skycatcher is a SP plane. . .made especially for SPL.  Granted GA people can fly it at night, but I bet that most GA pilots (that are current) will
purchase a 4 place for 1/4 the price of a skycatcher.   And a GA pilot is not limited.

I look at it this way. . .

If you have a GA license, you are either foolish purchasing a skycatcher, or just have a lot of money to spend.  (unless you are a CFI and are training people) A GA pilot can be far better off purchasing a 4 place plane. . . far better, far more useful, cheaper, and cost the same to hanger it. <smile>  And if you really want a two place plane, you can purchase a C150 for less than 20,000.  Usually around 14 to 17 thousand.  Yeah, it is older. . much older, but if you only hold one passenger, does it really matter? 



 
Definition of a Good Salesman: Screws you and you don't know it.


Definition of a Superb Salesman: You think you Screwed him!!!

From: Bob Comperini <bob@fly-ul.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group So much for Cessna

 
On 07:55 AM 2/13/2014, Dwayne wrote:

>Now. . .who in their right mind would spend 100,000 dollars, pay HUGE sales taxes, pay HUGE property taxes, for a airplane (and a SPL) that they can only fly during the day, carry one other person other than the pilot, and flies like a Kite? Only those with a tremendous amount of money to waste.

With all due respect... it's not a fair argument, because you are trying to compare the cost of a brand new SLSA plane, against an older used GA plane. Why not compare that cost against a brand new 152?

--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com





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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Fly Often, Fly Safely



That would be nice!  We've had the worst winter here in MD since we opened the school.  Even the year of Snowmageden wasn't this long and this harsh.  Almost all of my students have fled south leaving me virtually unemployed for the past several months.  We had a foot of snow Thursday, another 4 inches that night into Friday and more coming down now.  It's been so cold on top of that that we have been struggling to even keep the preheater working!

I am looking forward to taking a clue from my students and getting out of dodge and flying south in a week or so.  I found a school down in Pomepono Beach FL with cheap housing within walking distance of the airport and where I could do my SE ATP on my own Cessna.  I could use a tax-deductible break in this weather, where I could actually fly for a chance, right about now.

Helen


On 2/14/2014 3:42 PM, Richard Bauer wrote:

LOL…well, if the wx warms up as predicted I'll be making my first XC of the year next week between ARR and BMI.  I feel the need for a $100 hamburger and got to knock off some of this winter rust. 

 

 

'73,
rich, n9dko
Some friendships are so strong they can last right up until one of you needs help moving

_________________________________

 

 

Please send skis.

Helen




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Friday, February 14, 2014

Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna



Hi,
 
Avgas is 6 lb/gallon.  If you notice, there is a range.  Avgas is on the lighter end of the end.
 
Dave
 
In a message dated 2/14/2014 4:17:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rkwill@lewiscounty.com writes:
DJ,

Here is the source I used for the weight of gasoline.

<http://www.ask.com/question/how-much-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-weigh>

R. Williams

 

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna

DJ,

Here is the source I used for the weight of gasoline.

<http://www.ask.com/question/how-much-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-weigh>

R. Williams



---------- Original Message -----------
From: DJfawcett26@aol.com
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 17:49:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna

> For clarification, avgas is 6 lb per gallon. Useful load is defined
> as gross weight minus empty weight. That being said, you need to
> recalculated your numbers. More importantly, the LSA class was and is
> not intended to support folks that are 300 lb plus (almost 25% of the
> gross weight for 1 person!). You need to look at Part 23 aircraft.
>
> The Skycatcher can support 2-200 lb folks plus 12 gallons of gas.
> Given the class, that is not all that bad.
>
> As for the unrecoverable spin being the result of being tail heavy,
> that was not the case. The spin was being conducted in the aft
> range of the cg. The failure of spin recovery was to due to
> inadequate rudder authority, which was corrected on subsequent
> aircraft - i.e. - added ventral and rudder area.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> In a message dated 2/14/2014 2:53:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
> rkwill@lewiscounty.com writes:
>
> The max TO weight is 1340 pounds
> the empty weight of the standard model is 843 pounds
> The fuel capacity is 24 gal * 6.25 pounds is ~150 pounds
> so useful load is 347 pounds.
>
> Most people, now a days, are 200-250 pounds.
> I.E. there is not enough payload for two typical people.
> And with my 310 pounds, there is 37 pounds for the instructor.
>
> Unfortunately, Cessna seems to be using the 'standard individual
> weight of a male adult person, as defined by the FnAA Rather than
> the reality.
>
> I'm not familiar with the CG range, but very likely, a full payload
> (347 pounds + full fuel would result in a tail heavy condition.
> (remember the testing where the test pilot could not get the plane
> out of a spin because it is too tail heavy?
------- End of Original Message -------



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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: So much for Cessna



For clarification, avgas is 6 lb per gallon.  Useful load is defined as gross weight minus empty weight.  That being said, you need to recalculated your numbers. More importantly, the LSA class was and is not intended to support folks that are 300 lb plus (almost 25% of the gross weight for 1 person!).  You need to look at Part 23 aircraft.
 
The Skycatcher can support 2-200 lb folks plus 12 gallons of gas.  Given the class, that is not all that bad.
 
As for the unrecoverable spin being the result of being tail heavy, that was not the case.  The spin was being conducted in the aft range of the cg.  The failure of spin recovery was to due to inadequate rudder authority, which was corrected on subsequent aircraft - i.e. - added ventral and rudder area.
 
Best Regards,
 
Dave
 
In a message dated 2/14/2014 2:53:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rkwill@lewiscounty.com writes:
The max TO weight is 1340 pounds
the empty weight of the standard model is 843 pounds
The fuel capacity is 24 gal * 6.25 pounds is  ~150 pounds
so useful load is 347 pounds.

Most people, now a days, are 200-250 pounds.
I.E. there is not enough payload for two typical people.
And with my 310 pounds, there is 37 pounds for the instructor.

Unfortunately, Cessna seems to be using the 'standard individual weight of a
male adult person, as defined by the FnAA  Rather than the reality.

I'm not familiar with the CG range, but very likely, a full payload (347 pounds
+ full fuel would result in a tail heavy condition.
(remember the testing where the test pilot could not get the plane out of a spin
because it is too tail heavy?
 

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