Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Safety Seminar

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, UltraJohn <japrice@...> wrote:
>
> That is the part that is not correct, few if any aircraft have their
> CRUISE set at MAX continuous power. Look it up in any POH.
> Normally CRUISE is set at about 75% of Max...
> john
>
>
>
>
> On 2/26/2012 11:43 PM, Peter Walker wrote:
> > Hello
> > Cruise is set at the aircraft manufacturers specified MAXIMUM
> > continuous power at sea level in straight and level flight What that
> > gives at 5000 feet is not an issue
> >

Rotax has it's limitations set by them, that's one. The next thing that happens is the manufacture installs and tests the craft installation for any further limitations to be set by them in their POH. Third the FAA issues a airworthy cert with further limitations.

This is not GA folks. Forget GA. Sport craft are brand new items and not covered by anything but their own rules. Anything previously that applies is so stated in their own rulings. Forget part 23, not applicable here.

Isn't it that way, or do I have it all mixed up?
>

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

John Price <japrice@mindspring.com>

Hello

Not taking it personally

If we are talking about Light Sport there is only one specification you must meet in regards to cruise to be legal How the manufacturer sets the method is up to them You cant go and up the gross just because you feel like it  Some pitch the prop to suit the engine manufacturers maximum continuous revs Others make a mark on the tach or ASI Its unlikely they will go fast enought to upset anyone Its simply too hard to prove Its far easier to check the plane out for an illegal prop if you are running way too fast 

 Simply fly to the manufacturers spec and you are legal 

Peter

---

From:
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Obviously your taking this a bit personal...
I understand it fully, I understand "Standard conditions" and that's is what I
talked about.
I understand cruise setting, except in your mind, means something totally
different than Maximum continuous power. Which is why I made the comment about
it being illegal to set the plane up so as cruise (I am talking about Standard
conditions here as was posted in the original post I responded too) is equal
to 120Kt... It is...
John

On Monday, February 27, 2012 08:03:19 PM Peter Walker wrote:
> Hello John
>
> Set the airspeed to whatever your heart desires as a cruise If is a light
> sport it will be legal as long as you follow the manufacturers MAXIMUM
> continuous power settingAny other legal cruise will be slower(less than
> maximum continuous power)
>
> PS its likely to be on a placard and marked on the tach
>
> For some more entertainment do you let air out of your tyres when they are
> hot? The pressure will be higher than specifiedin the handbook Perhaps a
> read of the relavent standard might help you understand it better Peter
>
>
>
>

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

Obviously your taking this a bit personal...
I understand it fully, I understand "Standard conditions" and that's is what I
talked about.
I understand cruise setting, except in your mind, means something totally
different than Maximum continuous power. Which is why I made the comment about
it being illegal to set the plane up so as cruise (I am talking about Standard
conditions here as was posted in the original post I responded too) is equal
to 120Kt... It is...
John

On Monday, February 27, 2012 08:03:19 PM Peter Walker wrote:
> Hello John
>
> Set the airspeed to whatever your heart desires as a cruise If is a light
> sport it will be legal as long as you follow the manufacturers MAXIMUM
> continuous power settingAny other legal cruise will be slower(less than
> maximum continuous power)
>
> PS its likely to be on a placard and marked on the tach
>
> For some more entertainment do you let air out of your tyres when they are
> hot? The pressure will be higher than specifiedin the handbook Perhaps a
> read of the relavent standard might help you understand it better Peter
>
>
>
>

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

Hello John

 Set the airspeed to whatever your heart desires as a cruise If is a light sport it will be legal as long as you follow the manufacturers MAXIMUM continuous power setting Any other legal cruise will be slower (less than maximum continuous power)

PS its likely to be on a placard and marked on the tach

 For some more entertainment do you let air out of your tyres when they are hot? The pressure will be higher than specified in the handbook 

Perhaps a read of the relavent standard might help you understand it better

Peter

---

From: UltraJohn <japrice@mindspring.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

and the difference you keep on interchanging max cruise and cruise in various posts... they are not the same... I originally posted with regard to the statement that cruise (which is not max cruise) was 120Kt...
Enough.
John]


On 2/27/2012 3:22 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

if it is set to the specification its legal That is 120 knots at sea level at the aircraft manufacturers maximum continuous power setting That is the manufacturers specified maximum cruise It doesnt specify any speed at at any other altitude or power setting No one is interested in pinging a plane that meets the specification that goes faster at altitude 

 The Cubcrafters Supacub is rated at its 120 knots way under the engines manufacturers continuous power and its legal

Peter

 

 

From: UltraJohn <japrice@mindspring.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

The point from my original reply to the original post is that if he set his aircraft up for CRUISE of 120Kt  on a standard day, then basically his aircraft was illegal.
John

On 2/27/2012 8:41 AM, James Bair wrote:

 

So?  I'm missing the point of this entire thread.  It's a definition.  A standard day at sea level is a mathematical standard from which calculations can start so everyone is operating on the same page.  Would you prefer they use 1,000'?   Then we would hear someone in Colorado saying it's impossible for him to get there.  No, it isn't.  It's a math standard, just as you say, and calcs run from that standard.  All demonstrable on a whiz wheel.  BTW, the std temp is 59F (15C), not 72 that someone mentioned. 

 

Jim

 

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 10:50 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

STILL…..it is an "arrived at "  number….it's a mathematical specification.  I agree it is a standard, to which the aircraft must adhere to, but it is……not a truly demonstrable specification, because those perfect conditions of "sea level and a standard day"….are impossible.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Walker
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:44 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Hello

Cruise is set at the aircraft manufacturers specified MAXIMUM continuous power at sea level in straight and level flight What that gives at 5000 feet is not an issue

1 Technically there are places below sea level Dead Sea is the lowest about 413metres 1400 feet

Death valley is no 8 at 86 metres 260 feet below sea level Conversions are from the top of my head

2 The physics are well enough understood to easily calculate it But for practical puposes you need a barometer reading and a temperature to meet the specificatision Density altitude is the recognised term

Peter

From: Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Yep….and then you would be illegal.  Of course, the number is somewhat of a "calculated number" since two conditions of the rule don't really exist….

1.       Can't really fly at sea level, since you wouldn't be flying, you'd just be taxiing REALLY fast

2.       Does a standard day ever really exist?

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of UltraJohn
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:04 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Exactly, if you set your plane so that cruise (not max speed) to 120Kt on a standard day at sea level, then when you run it at max continuous power you WILL be going faster than 120Kt on a standard day at sea level

On 2/26/2012 10:50 PM, Lyle Cox wrote:

 

Actually….no….it says "maximum continuous power", which has nothing to do with 75% power cruise settings.  For example, I frequently run my Cherokee at max continuous power up here in Colorado, which actually is around 68% power, if compared to sea level and a standard day.

 

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lyle Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:47 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

The rule says.  Max cruise power…..etc…..not 75%

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of UltraJohn
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:36 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

How so? you said yourself that you set cruise at 120Kt on standard day.
Cruise normally is 75% max power in just about any piston engine prop plane existing.
So If you set the cruise as you specified then the speed at Max continuous power would be something in excess of the legal 120Kt.
It doesn't matter if you maintain a slower speed, if it is capable as set up of exceeding 120kt then it is not legal lsa/sport pilot...
John


On 2/26/2012 9:34 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

How so? Your are meeting the specification If you go faster at altitude its still legal as long as you keep the plane to spec and observe max continuous settings
Peter

From: UltraJohn mailto:japrice@mindspring.com
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Peter Walker mailto:peterwalker58@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

LSA rules dictate that the MAX Speed with Max continuous power is no greater than 120kt (with standard conditions (29.92hg, 72degrees Sea Level I think)...

If you have your cruise speed set to 120kt then most likely you are running illegally.
John

On 2/26/2012 3:14 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

The cruise speed is set at 120knots at sea level on a standard day

Peter

 

From: rotax2you mailto:rotax2you@yahoo.com
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:15 AM
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

There is a problem in your numbers. The 912ULS, 100hp at take off 5800, has a max continuous of 5500 or 96 hp. At altitude the propeller unload proportionate to the air density that more or less matches the power loss. The aircraft climbs slower but will go faster in level flight.

The engine maintains the 5500, but you are correct the power drops. The rule, set by the FAA, is for the aircraft not to exceed 120 knots in standard conditions. What is does at altitude is not a factor.

--- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, "Lyle Cox" mailto:LyleCox@... wrote:
>
> I think its 120 KIAS at sea level, continuous maximum cruise speed.
>
> From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Bill C
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 6:01 PM
> To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed
>
>
> Here is an interesting post to another group concerning engine specs and how
> they effect this:
>
> Re: Fastest Light Sport Airplane?
> One thing is to remember is that top speed is limited to 120kts IAS NOT TAS.
> This is usually related to max continuous RPM of the engine. In other words,
> an LSA can have an IAS no higher than 120kts when running at it's max
> contious RPM. Therefore, the fastest LSA should be the one with an engine
> that can maintain max contious RPM (and thus 120kts IAS) at the highest
> altitude.
>
> For example, a Rotax 912ULS has a Max RPM of 5800 and a max continous rpm of
> 5500. at 5500rpm the engine is running about 90% power. The highest altitude
> it can attain and still run at 5500rpm/90% power is roughly 3000ft. At that
> altitude, if IAS is 120kts, TAS should be roughly 127kts. If it flies higher
> than 3000ft it will not be able to maintain 90% power/5500 rpm and thus TAS
> will decrease.
>
> Now a Jabiru 3300L has a max rpm of 3300rpm but a max continuous rpm of
> 2850rpm which is estimated at less than 75% of total power. As a result a
> Jabiru 3300L engine can maintain max continuous rpm of 2850 at and above
> 8000ft. At an altitude of 8000 feet, if IAS is 120kt, TAS is almost 140kts.
>
> To take it a step further, the turbocharged rotax 914 can maintain its max
> continuous rpm to as high as 15,000 ft (although as of now, Sport pilots can
> not fly above 10,000 ft). At 10K ft with an IAS of 120kts, the LSA should be
> cruising at around 144kts TAS.
>
> All this assumes that the airframe is clean enough to reach the 120kt IAS
> limit at it's max RPM. For example, a STOL 701 isn't coming close to that
> speed with any of the above mentioned engines. It is just too slow.
>
> Hope this helps. My numbers are rough estimates.
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
>

 

 

 

 

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

and the difference you keep on interchanging max cruise and cruise in various posts... they are not the same... I originally posted with regard to the statement that cruise (which is not max cruise) was 120Kt...
Enough.
John]


On 2/27/2012 3:22 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

if it is set to the specification its legal That is 120 knots at sea level at the aircraft manufacturers maximum continuous power setting That is the manufacturers specified maximum cruise It doesnt specify any speed at at any other altitude or power setting No one is interested in pinging a plane that meets the specification that goes faster at altitude 

 The Cubcrafters Supacub is rated at its 120 knots way under the engines manufacturers continuous power and its legal

Peter

 

 

From: UltraJohn <japrice@mindspring.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

The point from my original reply to the original post is that if he set his aircraft up for CRUISE of 120Kt  on a standard day, then basically his aircraft was illegal.
John

On 2/27/2012 8:41 AM, James Bair wrote:

 

So?  I'm missing the point of this entire thread.  It's a definition.  A standard day at sea level is a mathematical standard from which calculations can start so everyone is operating on the same page.  Would you prefer they use 1,000'?   Then we would hear someone in Colorado saying it's impossible for him to get there.  No, it isn't.  It's a math standard, just as you say, and calcs run from that standard.  All demonstrable on a whiz wheel.  BTW, the std temp is 59F (15C), not 72 that someone mentioned. 

 

Jim

 

From: Lyle Cox

Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 10:50 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

STILL…..it is an "arrived at "  number….it's a mathematical specification.  I agree it is a standard, to which the aircraft must adhere to, but it is……not a truly demonstrable specification, because those perfect conditions of "sea level and a standard day"….are impossible.

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Walker
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:44 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Hello

Cruise is set at the aircraft manufacturers specified MAXIMUM continuous power at sea level in straight and level flight What that gives at 5000 feet is not an issue

1 Technically there are places below sea level Dead Sea is the lowest about 413metres 1400 feet

Death valley is no 8 at 86 metres 260 feet below sea level Conversions are from the top of my head

2 The physics are well enough understood to easily calculate it But for practical puposes you need a barometer reading and a temperature to meet the specificatision Density altitude is the recognised term

Peter

From: Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Yep….and then you would be illegal.  Of course, the number is somewhat of a "calculated number" since two conditions of the rule don't really exist….

1.       Can't really fly at sea level, since you wouldn't be flying, you'd just be taxiing REALLY fast

2.       Does a standard day ever really exist?

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of UltraJohn
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:04 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

Exactly, if you set your plane so that cruise (not max speed) to 120Kt on a standard day at sea level, then when you run it at max continuous power you WILL be going faster than 120Kt on a standard day at sea level

On 2/26/2012 10:50 PM, Lyle Cox wrote:

 

Actually….no….it says "maximum continuous power", which has nothing to do with 75% power cruise settings.  For example, I frequently run my Cherokee at max continuous power up here in Colorado, which actually is around 68% power, if compared to sea level and a standard day.

 

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lyle Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:47 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

The rule says.  Max cruise power…..etc…..not 75%

 

From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of UltraJohn
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:36 PM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

How so? you said yourself that you set cruise at 120Kt on standard day.
Cruise normally is 75% max power in just about any piston engine prop plane existing.
So If you set the cruise as you specified then the speed at Max continuous power would be something in excess of the legal 120Kt.
It doesn't matter if you maintain a slower speed, if it is capable as set up of exceeding 120kt then it is not legal lsa/sport pilot...
John


On 2/26/2012 9:34 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

How so? Your are meeting the specification If you go faster at altitude its still legal as long as you keep the plane to spec and observe max continuous settings
Peter

From: UltraJohn mailto:japrice@mindspring.com
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Peter Walker mailto:peterwalker58@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

LSA rules dictate that the MAX Speed with Max continuous power is no greater than 120kt (with standard conditions (29.92hg, 72degrees Sea Level I think)...

If you have your cruise speed set to 120kt then most likely you are running illegally.
John

On 2/26/2012 3:14 PM, Peter Walker wrote:

 

Hello

The cruise speed is set at 120knots at sea level on a standard day

Peter

 

From: rotax2you mailto:rotax2you@yahoo.com
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:15 AM
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed

 

 

There is a problem in your numbers. The 912ULS, 100hp at take off 5800, has a max continuous of 5500 or 96 hp. At altitude the propeller unload proportionate to the air density that more or less matches the power loss. The aircraft climbs slower but will go faster in level flight.

The engine maintains the 5500, but you are correct the power drops. The rule, set by the FAA, is for the aircraft not to exceed 120 knots in standard conditions. What is does at altitude is not a factor.

--- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, "Lyle Cox" mailto:LyleCox@... wrote:
>
> I think its 120 KIAS at sea level, continuous maximum cruise speed.
>
> From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Bill C
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 6:01 PM
> To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Cruising speed
>
>
> Here is an interesting post to another group concerning engine specs and how
> they effect this:
>
> Re: Fastest Light Sport Airplane?
> One thing is to remember is that top speed is limited to 120kts IAS NOT TAS.
> This is usually related to max continuous RPM of the engine. In other words,
> an LSA can have an IAS no higher than 120kts when running at it's max
> contious RPM. Therefore, the fastest LSA should be the one with an engine
> that can maintain max contious RPM (and thus 120kts IAS) at the highest
> altitude.
>
> For example, a Rotax 912ULS has a Max RPM of 5800 and a max continous rpm of
> 5500. at 5500rpm the engine is running about 90% power. The highest altitude
> it can attain and still run at 5500rpm/90% power is roughly 3000ft. At that
> altitude, if IAS is 120kts, TAS should be roughly 127kts. If it flies higher
> than 3000ft it will not be able to maintain 90% power/5500 rpm and thus TAS
> will decrease.
>
> Now a Jabiru 3300L has a max rpm of 3300rpm but a max continuous rpm of
> 2850rpm which is estimated at less than 75% of total power. As a result a
> Jabiru 3300L engine can maintain max continuous rpm of 2850 at and above
> 8000ft. At an altitude of 8000 feet, if IAS is 120kt, TAS is almost 140kts.
>
> To take it a step further, the turbocharged rotax 914 can maintain its max
> continuous rpm to as high as 15,000 ft (although as of now, Sport pilots can
> not fly above 10,000 ft). At 10K ft with an IAS of 120kts, the LSA should be
> cruising at around 144kts TAS.
>
> All this assumes that the airframe is clean enough to reach the 120kt IAS
> limit at it's max RPM. For example, a STOL 701 isn't coming close to that
> speed with any of the above mentioned engines. It is just too slow.
>
> Hope this helps. My numbers are rough estimates.
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
>

 

 

 

 

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