Re: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

I have to use two hands to flare my older C172 when I use 40 degrees of flaps to avoid a three point landing.

Helen


Aug 27, 2010 10:23:46 AM, Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com wrote:

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Hello Daniel, > > Deaf ears or not. . .the question is not about what is best or not best >at certain airports. the question is about what people use for landing. > > Personally, full flaps is probably the biggest cause of nose wheel wobble >IMO. and the IA here says the same thing. Full flaps in those cessna's cause >that nose to be closer to level than no flaps, in which beginners tend to "drive" >the airplane onto the runway. No flaps keeps the nose very high during the >entire landing sequence. Who's right? Who's wrong? I say learn ALL methods, >practice them, and be aware of what problems you can acquire in each of the >situations. > > > It call boils down to "Preference" and what kind of strip you are landing >in. I have landed in 1000 foot fields, as well as 12000 foot runways. >One you can choose your preferred method, the other you can't as easily. > > I chuckled on the full flaps go around. . .Yep. . .Full Flap go-around >on a 172 or 150 is asking for a lot of trouble. . . Full Flaps might be some of >the causes of IFR crashes during a ILS missed approach. You are in landing >configuration. . .trimmed out. . .200 feet and no runway in sight. . .Apply full >power without being aware of the configuration of your airplane means instant nose >up attitude. > > > >Dwayne (Thanks for responding!) > > > >Great to hear from ya! > >--- On Fri, 8/27/10, Daniel Tappan <dancfi@yahoo.com> wrote: > >5px;"> >From: Daniel Tappan <dancfi@yahoo.com> >Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse >To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com >Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:00 AM > > > >--- On Thu, 8/26/10, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >From: Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com> > > About Flaps. . . > > IT depends upon the airplane. . . > >Piper A-6 I ALWAYS use 10 degrees of flaps. . . It keeps the nose up. > >10 degrees of flaps increases the lift, decreases the stall speed, but doesn't >affect the airspeed that much. The lift cancels out the drag. > >In the Cherokee 180, I use 10 degrees of flaps, or 20. > >In the Cessna 150, I use NO flaps, or 10 degrees. I prefer no flaps. > >Well Dwayne....besides helping >folks to learn how to fly for 35 years I have also been a A&P with an Inspection >Authorization. When you touch down in any a PA 28 series aircraft OR Cessna 150 >OR a 172 OR a Grumman tiger landing with full flaps ON THE MAINS is Much easier >on the aircraft if for no other reason.( Ever notice how the nose gear shimmies >on old Cessna rental aircraft ? ) Folks that have learned to fly on >long (2000 foot) runways often have trouble landing on relatively short runways >that dot our country !They dont know how to land ...with flaps The thing I like best about the little Cessna >150 is how slow I can land that little lady with full flaps ! Ditto the PA 28 series. >Very handy if you have to land it in a corn field sometime. Ben there , done that. >I know it was all a waste of breath or typing.. oh well .You can pull a horse >to drink but you cant make it water ! > >The old man Taildragger Dan > P.S. Years ago >the Cesssna 172 had manual flaps like the cherokees. But it had 4 notches or 40% >of big flaps That iarcraft could land very gently and slowly.You can guess the problem. >Lot of "pilots" got into trouble trying to go around with full flaps! Cant be done! >Not >the airplanes fault ! OK I will shut up!! > >

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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

Hello Daniel,   Deaf ears or not. . .the question is not about what is best or not best at certain airports.  the question is about what people use for landing.   Personally, full flaps is probably the biggest cause of nose wheel wobble IMO. and the IA here says the same thing.  Full flaps in those cessna's cause that nose to be closer to level than no flaps, in which beginners tend to "drive" the airplane onto the runway.  No flaps keeps the nose very high during the entire landing sequence.  Who's right?  Who's wrong? I say learn ALL methods, practice them,  and be aware of what problems you can acquire in each of the situations.   It call boils down to "Preference" and what kind of strip you are landing in.  I have landed in 1000 foot fields, as well as 12000 foot runways.  One you can choose your preferred method, the other you can't as easily.   I chuckled on the full flaps go around. . .Yep. . .Full Flap go-around on a 172 or 150 is asking for a lot of trouble. . . Full Flaps might be some of the causes of IFR crashes during a ILS missed approach.  You are in landing configuration. . .trimmed out. . .200 feet and no runway in sight. . .Apply full power without being aware of the configuration of your airplane means instant nose up attitude.                    Dwayne (Thanks for responding!) Great to hear from ya! --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Daniel Tappan <dancfi@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Daniel Tappan <dancfi@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:00 AM   --- On Thu, 8/26/10, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com>     About Flaps. . .  IT depends upon the airplane. . . Piper A-6  I ALWAYS use 10 degrees of flaps. . . It keeps the nose up. 10 degrees of flaps increases the lift, decreases the stall speed, but doesn't affect the airspeed that much.  The lift cancels out the drag.  In the Cherokee 180, I use 10 degrees of flaps, or 20. In the Cessna 150, I use NO flaps, or 10 degrees.   I prefer no flaps. Well Dwayne....besides helping folks to learn how to fly for 35 years I have also been a A&P with an Inspection Authorization. When you touch down in any a PA 28 series aircraft OR Cessna 150 OR a 172 OR a Grumman tiger landing with full flaps ON THE MAINS is Much easier on the aircraft if for no other reason.( Ever notice how the nose gear shimmies on old Cessna rental aircraft ? )    Folks that have learned to fly on long (2000 foot) runways often have trouble landing on relatively short runways that dot our country !They dont know how to land ...with flaps     The thing I like best about the little Cessna 150 is how slow I can land that little lady with full flaps ! Ditto the PA 28 series. Very handy if you have to land it in a corn field sometime. Ben there , done that. I know it was all a waste of breath or typing.. oh well .You can pull  a horse to drink but you cant make it water !                                                                                       The old man Taildragger Dan    P.S. Years ago the Cesssna 172 had manual flaps like the cherokees. But it had 4 notches or 40% of big flaps That iarcraft could land very gently and slowly.You can guess the problem. Lot of "pilots" got into trouble trying to go around with full flaps! Cant be done! Not the airplanes fault ! OK I will shut up!!

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse (should be th flap-flap thread )

--- On Thu, 8/26/10, Marc <averys_98550@comcast.net> wrote: From: Marc <averys_98550@comcast.net> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 12:16 PM   My first instructor had me landing NO Flaps. His thoughts were that many of the planes I could end up flying won't have flaps so learn how to handle that first. He was right, many of the things I fly have none. The Piper Colt, J3, 7AC Champ, Luscomb, Baby Great Lakes, and the time when the Cardinal II flaps wouldn't extend because the switch failed. FWD slip works fine. Marc   Mark..Your instructor did a good job teaching you to land with no flaps , my next homebuilt the Cygnet has no flaps. My piper Vagabond didnt either.Just use watcha got. When I checked out new CFI s at the FBO that I worked at I always had them land with airspeed covered up.No problem if you know how to fly.                                                                                              The old man ...Taildragger Dan          Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests. Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center. Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

--- On Thu, 8/26/10, Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Dwayne <masterdr@yahoo.com>     About Flaps. . .  IT depends upon the airplane. . . Piper A-6  I ALWAYS use 10 degrees of flaps. . . It keeps the nose up. 10 degrees of flaps increases the lift, decreases the stall speed, but doesn't affect the airspeed that much.  The lift cancels out the drag.  In the Cherokee 180, I use 10 degrees of flaps, or 20. In the Cessna 150, I use NO flaps, or 10 degrees.   I prefer no flaps. Well Dwayne....besides helping folks to learn how to fly for 35 years I have also been a A&P with an Inspection Authorization. When you touch down in any a PA 28 series aircraft OR Cessna 150 OR a 172 OR a Grumman tiger landing with full flaps ON THE MAINS is Much easier on the aircraft if for no other reason.( Ever notice how the nose gear shimmies on old Cessna rental aircraft ? )    Folks that have learned to fly on long (2000 foot) runways often have trouble landing on relatively short runways that dot our country !They dont know how to land ...with flaps     The thing I like best about the little Cessna 150 is how slow I can land that little lady with full flaps ! Ditto the PA 28 series. Very handy if you have to land it in a corn field sometime. Ben there , done that. I know it was all a waste of breath or typing.. oh well .You can pull  a horse to drink but you cant make it water !                                                                                       The old man Taildragger Dan    P.S. Years ago the Cesssna 172 had manual flaps like the cherokees. But it had 4 notches or 40% of big flaps That iarcraft could land very gently and slowly.You can guess the problem. Lot of "pilots" got into trouble trying to go around with full flaps! Cant be done! Not the airplanes fault ! OK I will shut up!!

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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

About Flaps. . .  IT depends upon the airplane. . . Piper A-6  I ALWAYS use 10 degrees of flaps. . . It keeps the nose up. 10 degrees of flaps increases the lift, decreases the stall speed, but doesn't affect the airspeed that much.  The lift cancels out the drag.  In the Cherokee 180, I use 10 degrees of flaps, or 20. In the Cessna 150, I use NO flaps, or 10 degrees.   I prefer no flaps. In gusty situations, or windy situations, I ALWAYS use 10 degrees of flaps, no more, no less.                Dwayne

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RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

At the time they realized the flare was too high, with too much speed.  Why put a student through this, when his abilities to correct for this is way too much for him? He dropped the power when he was 3 to 4 feet off the ground, 1/2 way down the runway, "forcing" him to land even though the setup was poor, and the runway is being eaten up by long approach? Go around. . .get a BETTER approach (towards the first 1/2 of the runway). 1. They were 3 feet off the ground with enough power to make them float the whole length of the runway.. 2. They were way over speed. 3. They were drifting all over the place, and it seemed they were more focused on staying in the center of a runway that seems to be 200 feet wide.    When learning to land, center of runway is NOT important, unless your runway is very narrow.  1.  If you cannot successfully fly straight down that runway about 15 MPH above stall speed, you shouldn't be landing yet IMO.  That means no ballooning.    This involves controlling power, Altitude, speed, rudder, and elevator. 2.  When #1 is accomplished the "setup" is there, and a little drift is fine.  Now you can focus on distance above  runway, power application,  bleeding off speed, and if you float a little to the left or right on the center of the runway that is wide enough, that is fine. With #1 accomplished, he would not have drove the airplane into the ground when he let off the power. 3.   Landing center of runway comes after you master landing with confidence, and can focus a little bit more on centering, instead of all the other stuff. Great to hear from ya! --- On Wed, 8/25/10, Michael Huckle <m230683@hotmail.com> wrote: From: Michael Huckle <m230683@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse To: "Sport Aircraft" <sport_aircraft@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 1:47 PM   > Here's my question: > At what moment should that student or instructor have > moved the throttle to full power for a go-around? > Mike > From: jimbair@live.com > Never? Because go arounds just cause crashes? > (I hope I get the answer right.) > [Smile emoticon] Jim LOL I trust you noticed the guy -did- crash, Jim. So, the question again, for other contributors: > At what moment should that student or instructor have > moved the throttle to full power for a go-around? > Mike .

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Remos Nose Gear Collapse

That wasn't a stall, not even close to a stall. . . Either one of two things happened. . ..(Depending upon scenario. . . 1.  Strong headwind with Gusts. . .straight down the runway (Or close to it). And the wind gusted and stopped, leaving the airplane with no wind at all.  (But the ASI does not show this), and the CFI should be shot for bringing a student in such conditions. (So I doubt if this scenario existed). 2. The student drove the airplane into the ground.  Every thing I see falls in this category.  ASI, Even nose drop.   How does this happen?    I see the instructor tapping his fingers in front of the airplane. . .a distraction.  I see him about 3 feet off the runway, I see his instructor tapping fingers and pointing to something, it looked like he was telling the student to stay in the middle of the runway.  Something like a very light crosswind.  As the student was drifting to the left, the instructor was using his finger to  say More to the right, more to the right.   He was also high, and I think he knew it.  I also detect a loss of power when the nose started going down.  I think what happened, they knew it was high, the airplane was fast, but only 3 feet off the ground, they decreased power which lowered the nose, and did not raise the Nose (at all)  to compensate for the decrease of power.   Common mistake beginners do at low altitudes and high speed approaches.   Result. . .drove it right into the ground . . .at probably close to 10 MPH over stall speed / ground effect speed.    Definitely NO stall.    About ballooning. . .The airplane was not in much of a balloon.  It was a extremely shallow balloon with PLENTY of speed.  Both knew it, and I believe the student probably cut back the power to slow the airplane down to keep the flare from happening way too high.  In cutting back the power, the nose compensated by dropping.  It probably dropped fast enough that by the time the instructor noticed it, that 3 feet was gone.  Flare is too late, and you hit on the NOSE gear first (breaking the nose)  then hitting the main.  AS soon as the main hit, the angle of attack was not great enough to lift the airplane back into the air, because the nose gear collapsed partially by absorbing most of the shock on the first hit.  Thus, an immediate crunch and no lift for a "bounce and go".                   Dwayne

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