Yeh mine is acting really weird too. What is wrong, anyone know? I thought it was just Gary censoring me since he doesn't like me or what I say or how I say it or even how long I say it. I figured he just had a personality disorder or something. I don't even know him. He may be a great guy but he has taken a disliking to me for sure and said so . . . so I chalked it off to something he was doing.
Bruce, something is somehow gummed up and when we hit reply, it goes to you, not the group. I had to resend specifically to the group. Very strange. Apparently you and Lyle and I are in some sort of 3 way. I just keep pasting the group address in, but your emails are coming straight from you, not the group.Lyle,What are you talking about? Is there a problem? You seem terribly confused. Which topic are you discussing now? Here is the one you're responding to: "Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport Pilots"Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com> wrote:
First of all..i AM posting to the group. I simply hit "reply" in my email and it takes it to the group.
Secondly…you noted in red after my line about sport aircraft. If you would take the time to READ instead of trying to further what you think is an argument, you would discover that you were still talking about the pilot…not the aircraft. It is very clear that my statement was about the aircraft. I have NEVER stated that the sport pilot can't do anything but a sport pilot. I have never said they can't take additional training. I have never said they can't fly jet fighters. I have stated, several times, that the rules of the game, simply do not allow things for sport pilots…such as flying a turbine powered aircraft, as PIC. They also cannot fly in IMC…as PIC. According to rules….the same rules you also probably adhere to. I assume you take the time to get your BFR every two years and get a medical. Why? Because the rules say you need to. Can you fly without them? Of course, you can. Legally? No.
I don't know why hitting the reply button sent that email directly to you, except when I look at the heading that you replied to…..you will see that your post came directly to me, directly from you . I dunno….but it happened. So please get off my case. I certainly had no intention of communicating directly with you on this and it was a post intended for the group.
From: b d [mailto:gpabruce@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:43 PM
To: Lyle Cox
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport Pilots
Why are you not posting to the group first of all?
Secondly I disagree Lyle, I don't know what you meant, only what you wrote and you continued to say Sport Pilot and the topic is about the experience and knowledge of the Sport Pilot not the aircraft. That would be yet another topic for another time.
Aircraft, certified or not, IFR certified or not do not fly anywhere alone, their pilots fly them. Their pilot is in charge of them and will pay any penalties for not following the rules - if caught or if admitted. If however the weather closes in around the aircraft and if the aircraft is not properly instrumented or if the instruments are not properly certified . . . I wouldn't advocate giving up and dieing. I would pull out my little GPS and fly to my airport or out of the conditions. If I didn't have my little GPS, I would do with what I had . . like the compass, my map and do the best I can with what I have. I wouldn't panic because things can clear up just as fast as they cab get bad. Sometimes if a feller just relaxes and climbs higher he can see breaks in the clouds or weather and fly down through them. Once you get high many times it's not near as bad as one thinks.
I recall a Doctor over in the San Joaquin Valley. It was socked in with a low layer of Tule fog and he was completely lost and kept yelling mayday until he ran out of fuel and crashed and died. Had he relaxed, had a little more experience, he could have climbed, when he did he would have seen an aiport a few miles from him that was at a higher altitude, that was not socked in, where he could have landed . . . Had that airport been socked in too, which it wasn't, he had plenty of fuel to make in a few miles over the mountains to Kern River Valley where it was alwasy clear . . . but had that been socked in . . . he had pleanty for fuel and time to make it over to the Mojave Desert not far away. He chose to die that day like Johnny Kennedy did. All the rules in he world won't help these people, all the money and all the instruments won't help these people.
Are we back on track again?
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com> wrote:
Bruce….please re-read. You are making a comment regarding the sport PILOT, but my statement was clearly written about light sport AIRCRAFT.
From: b d [mailto:gpabruce@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:55 PM
To: Lyle Cox
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport Pilots
So are you advocating the sport pilot who finds himself in IMC conditions just commit suicide rather than break a man made rule? Sully faced the same delima. Fortunately for all involved he was smart enough to abandon the rules and do what was right. The rule makers are not flying your plane, only you are. If you have the choice of landing on an interstate highway, which is illegal, or killing your wife and kids or passengers, I hope you chose the illegal choice and make a safe landing on the Interstate and pay the small fine. The fellow everyone is talking about was seemingly a "rule follower to the end" and couldn't abandon the temptation of that 8000 ft runway for a safer but less legal landing choice. He obviously made the wrong decision which I'm sure he will admit to as well. "I wish I hadn't been so hung on rules . . dah!"
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Lyle Cox <LyleCox@funaerosports.com> wrote:
Of course, a sport pilot can get the training. A sport pilot can get training to be a F22 pilot. THANK YOU ! They just can't use that training to perform flight in IMC conditions, legally. (legally . . . ) Most sport aircraft are not certified to be IFR and soon, only those that were grandfathered in previously will ever be certified as IFR aircraft. (It's still being stated wrong. You make it sound like once a sport pilot one can never do anything else. The model airplane pilot, the glider pilot, the UL pilot, the LSA Pilot are all just micro steps in climbing the big mountain of flight. They can go on to be an ATP or an Astronuats, what ever they desire and if they desire. You people make it sound like being an LSA pilot is somehow the end of life, it's only the beginning except for those of us who are coming down from the mountain or hung up on the little LSA thing) The new, clarification rules, prevent an ASTM certified aircraft to be used in IMC. However, the few Part 23 certificated aircraft, would, of course, be allowed to fly into IMC, assuming the aircraft is properly equipped.
You inexperienced LSA pilots should never be advocating to or teaching new pilots that if they find hemselves in a compromsing position like we do from time to time in the air or in weather, that the new pilot should just quit thinking and not do what he knows best to do. FIND a HOLE and LAND for gods sake! If you have Instruments and know how to use them, FIND and AIRPORT and LAND for gods sake! If you lose your engine, FIND ANYTHING SOFT and LAND ON IT for gods sake! and then if you feel that guilty, and you don't feel the government has taken enough of your money, please go turn yourself in, lock yourself in jail and pay your fine, double or tripple it if it will make you feel better! But use your damned head. Geech! where did you guys get your tickets at? I've never heard so much crap . . .
The sport pilot, or any other pilot acting under sport pilot rules, cannot legally fly into IMC conditions as that action is specifically prohibited by FAR's. If they find themselves, inadvertently, in IMC, they are still illegal and could be cited for improper planning, failure to avoid IMC and the whole gamut. Yes, they might arrive on the ground alive because of the training, which is why a certain amount of flying by reference solely to the instruments is part of training. Obviously, being trained to the point of IFR proficiency would be much better.
From: b d [mailto:gpabruce@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport Pilots
What would prevent any Sport Pilot from gaining a IFR Rating or the knowledge of an IFR rating? Yes that would certainly help anyone. I don't see anything preventing a person from doing that if he has the money, the time, and the ability. Does anyone know something I don't know here? There is no one keeping me from doing it that I know of. I myself have IFR knowledge just in case although I prefer nice sunny days. One does not need to be certified to have knowledge and certainly certification shouldn't limit one either from using that knowledge. I'm always amazed at how certain people can always be so rule bound. It's good Sully wasn't.
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 6:26 AM, wj18001900 <swferris@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Why is an IFR rating not possible for a pilot that only has a Sport Pilot certification? . . . . Only a couple of LSA aircraft even offer IFR instruments as an option (for pilots flying them that have a higher than Sport Pilot certification).
The NTSB has many accident reports of well trained, well intentioned, very responsible, highly experienced pilots (but that did not have an instrument rating) that were flying a well planned flight, but during the flight, they got caught in inadvertent flight from VFR to IMC, and then they crashed their airplanes.
It would seem to me that the Sport Pilot having the ability to earn an IFR rating, and to fly IFR equiped LSA aircraft would very helpful, and would add a new level of safety to those in the air and on the ground.
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