Actually, we're saying the same thing. Fly the plane and do what is necessary is exactly what I've been saying as well. The hang up seems to be this "Sully didn't follow the rules" thing. My point is, Sully did follow the rules. He followed 91.3 which specifically says, when you have an emergency, there are no rules. Do what it takes.
This thread started, for me, with a response to a recurring theme I have seen here and in other lists as well, that being the reason Sully was able to glide his airplane to the river was because he had a glider rating. Hogwash. And as Mitch, I believe, pointed out during that discussion, Sully said the same thing in an interview, that other factors and more recent experiences were much more important than the fact he had a glider rating. There was also the perception that any airplane that is without power is a glider. We can argue semantics all day on that one, which I find to be a waste of time. My point is, having flown both, is that airliners do not fly like gliders, so to compare the two is basically worthless. Min sink on an airliner is probably in the vicinity of 1700'/ min and the speed would probably be around 230 KTS making a turn circle with a diameter of about 5 miles unless you increase the AOB at which the sink rate would go up. Anyone can quickly see it's going to take an awesome thermal to get some lift. Haha. So a glider, it isn't. But it is gliding. Gliding an airliner from altitude is a math problem, not a visual one. From 40,000' you'd start final glide about 120 NM out, and then it's an energy management exercise. From lower altitude, it's pretty much a visual exercise getting the gear and flaps down as appropriate to hit your target. Which is coming at you much faster than in your standard glider. The two experiences just aren't that similar.
My point to people is, when you have an emergency, no one expects you to fly normal procedures. At the airline we brief "Engine failure on takeoff" prior to every departure. This means we we will be flying a different profile on departure from normal if an engine quits. ATC expects us to toss the normal departure. That isn't breaking rules, it's actually doing what is expected. We might not clear terrain we could normally clear on a normal departure.
I know nothing of the specific accident being referred to where some guy hit some power lines, so can't address that specifically. Monday morning QBing some pilot without some information isn't something I like to participate in. However, these philosophical discussions on how to handle emergencies in general and how ATC handles emergencies and what they might expect you as the pilot to do are quite valuable, I think.
It's been interesting. Thanks for the inputs. Now I'm back to work, where our philosophy is, "If we can catch the first employee bus to the parking lot when the trip is over without having to stop at the flight office to fill out paperwork, it was a good trip."
Jim
From: b d
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport Pilots
I disagree Jim, you're not being objective and you're not listening. If you need I will be happy to go over it again using another perspective. It's not what the FAA or the ATC does, it's what we do to ourselves in our own minds as we are learning and building neuro-networks. In an emergency we should switch to our intuition, aka wisdom, aka common sense whatever you wish to call it. What I'm referring to is the total culmination of the total sum of all of our learning and experiences and knowledge combined. That includes any information we obtain from our grandmothers experiences as well (if any). Our great minds know what to do if we let them. It will leave the rules out of the equation for us if we let it. Our subconscious mind doesn't question rules unless we have allowed ourselves to become brainwashed and blocked but that's another topic. If we relax our great mind, the part we call the "right side of our brain", the high speed data logger side, will make a very good decision for us. If it doesn't like the runway just over the power lines, it may tell us to fly under them or it may tell us to land on a highway parallel to them or mabe in the utitlity easement or in a river or in a vacant school yard. It doesn't work well when we confuse it with man made rules and regulations, that's for our Left hemisphere to deal with for normal processing. We can take the advice or not take it. Sully was a man that could use both sides of his brain in an instant and did it well. The other fellow being discussed who crashed his LSA into some power lines was an example of the opposite type of person. The proof was in the pudding, the results.
That's my opinion, my experience and my wisdom. If you don't agree that's fine but you are no one to say what's wrong or right. Do it your way and if it works for you great. My way works for me. I use both or either side of my mind on command. You can learn this or not. It should be taught in school but it's not. That's yet another topic.
There was a case not long ago of an experimental LSA as I recall, that completely lost it's prop while over water near the coast. It was also a test flight if I recall. There was some maintenance issue in this by the prop completely coming off, but anyway the Pilot flew towards the beach and landed on the beach. Problem was there was a jogger running on the beach with his back to the oncoming crippled plane wanting to land on the beach. The jogger had a head set on and couldn't/didn't hear the plane behind him. The pilot hit the jogger and killed him. The group came to the side of the pilot and blamed it on the jogger for not hearing the plane (the engine was surely no longer running anyway). They judged the jogger to be at fault for his own death while they said the pilot was a hero for saving his plane and passenger. You decide . . .
So I'll leave it at this for everyone to weigh in on. I'll also try to dig up the original article to make sure I have the story right.
So tell us, what do you see wrong with this picture? Dd the Pilot do good? Did he exercise due diligence? Did he follow the rules? Could he have avoided killing the jogger?
I'll go off line and try to find the article while you ponder this.
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Jim Bair <jimbair@live.com> wrote:
The problem I see with looking at it your way is that many people would be afraid to declare an emergency when they should. That is exactly the opposite of the intent of FAR 91.3. It specifically says, "Don't worry about the normal rules, this rule trumps all those." It's not a moot and boring subject in my opinion, but a very important one. I was a new Private Pilot one day a long time ago, and I was terrified of towers, rules, etc. I'm sure many know what I mean. I had a guy tell me that when I called for a weather brief, I should use a fake N number. LOL. Now I realize that's my proof I received a briefing, as required by the rules. Why? Because it's a pretty good idea to get a weather brief if you're going somewhere. I may be wrong, but it just feels like you're making this harder than it needs to be. I don't see anywhere that it says you should wreck your airplane in power lines because that's the rule. You're reading too much into this stuff.Jim B.From: b dSent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:20 PMSubject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport PilotsAs my grand kids would say . . . What Everrrrrrrrrrrrrr . . . .You fly follow your rules and I'll fly my plane . . . . we'll all be happy that way.This has become a moot and boring subject . . . . It does explain why different pilots do different things under the same conditions. If you wish to ignore it then please do. I'm not trying to change your mind I'm just making my point. Take it or leave it.Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Jim Bair <jimbair@live.com> wrote:
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Rules are designed for normal operations. Any game is played better with rules. If you don't think so, compare driving in the US with some Latin American countries where it comes to a gridlock because no one follows simple rules. What this FAR is trying to tell you is, you are expected to have priority and cut in line. That's the rule once you have an emergency.You are focusing on the "upon the request of the Administrator, "send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator". while failing to note the "upon the request of" part. Yes, people may inquire as to why you asked to cut to the front of the line. Sometimes paperwork is requested to help build a database to highlight problems. We hit a bird on final the other day and didn't know it. Maintenance called us on the way to the hotel to ask about it. We did see the bird, but didn't realize it went through the number 3 engine at the time. So, some paperwork was filled out. Big deal. If you are in the pattern at some class D field and say, "Hey tower, my engine just started running rough. I need to land now. I am declaring an emergency." Those are the magic words that clear everyone out of your way. In that case, I would be surprised if you even had to send a letter to the administrator. On the other hand, if the emergency was of your own making, and let's say the airfield was closed to other traffic for even 15 minutes while you're getting talked out of the cloud you inadvertently found yourself in just a few minutes after dark, and a 747 was holding at the IAF burning 20,000# per hour, yeah, someone might question why you cut to the front of the line.Your example using Sully as your poster child of a rule breaker and the whole honorable rule breaker thing is just plain wrong. Turn it around and realize that Sully followed the rules perfectly. Rule 1 being, an emergency makes all other rules null and void. Yes, normal procedures dictate we land on runways, and if you said, haha, he landed on water, therefore, he broke the rules, then the rest of the world would say, "Don't be an idiot. He had no engines. Normal procedures no longer apply, because this is no longer a normal situation."Jim B.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You answered your own question. In an emergency, rules may be broken. Get it? You may have to break some rules in an emergency and if so but you have broken the rules. Sully undoubtedly broke some rules . . . no big deal . . .(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, "send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator".After the emergency is over, after you have broken the rules, you may (c) . . . "send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator".What it does not go on to say is what happens next . . . there will probably be an investigation to determine what happened (you are still admittedly guilty of breaking the rules . . you admitted you did by filing a report and you asked for forgiveness from the administrator. He may forgive you or he may not. If he does forgive you, you have still broken the rules but have been forgiven . . .follow it so far? If he doesn't forgive you, you have still broken the rules and may have to pay a penalty. Either way, with no exceptions . . . you still broke the rules ! Get it? In this case Sully broke the rules and was forgiven and was even deemed a hero for "BREAKING THE RULES". He still broke the rules. Breaking the rules does not make a person a bad person. In this case Sully was a better person just because he broke the rules . . .Said yet another way: Had Sully not broken the rules he would have been an honorable rule follower as is the fellow who landed on the power lines because he could not deviate from the damned rules! Now he was an idiot with a wrecked plane but he was an honorable rule following idiot with a wrecked plane . . . The question is, which do you want to be?Bruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Jim Bair <jimbair@live.com> wrote:
Good grief people,This has gotten totally out of control. I asked earlier exactly what rule Sully broke, and did not get one response. Then more posts came along stating in different words that Sully broke the rules. Let's take a look at the following link and READ IT CLOSELY. I don't type in caps much. Personally, I find it offensive, but this is no kidding an important concept that everyone should understand and all of you have given me some new stuff to include in my oral. Thank you for that. Seriously, I had no idea how many people have this misperception about emergency authority.Sec. 91.3
Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
Has everyone read it? Now, having read it, please tell me what rule Sully broke? "In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency." That is 91.3, the second FAR of part 91, and 91.1 is admin crap, making this practically the first FAR on operating rules, just to give a feel for it's importance! Given that, is it even possible for Sully to break a rule? I'm trying to figure out how he could. He would have to work damned hard at it. There is NO FINE to pay. He was a hero for doing exactly what he was supposed to do! (Fly the plane to the best landing possible.) When you have an emergency, everyone, including the FAA, expects you to use common sense and do whatever it takes to survive and to keep others alive as well. If you have an emergency, just about anything flying has to get out of your way, if it can. If you have an engine out at Kennedy Space Center and the shuttle is on final, you might want to give serious thought as to who you are competing with for the runway, but by and large, in most cases, you get the right of way. That's how the rules are written. So everyone who has made a post on this thread stating outright or implying that Sully broke rules, drop that thought. He did not. The reason it's important to drop that thought is if you ever have an emergency, you as the PIC have every right to do what it takes to survive. Does this mean you're allowed to be stupid? No. If the emergency was totally of your own making, you might want to make note of line c above. If you, as a Sport Pilot come spiraling out of the clouds over a Class D airport and land with no radio because you "had an emergency", you might be asked how this emergency developed. But if you have an engine showing low oil pressure, you can land at a Class D field even if you don't have a BCD endorsement and no one will fine you. I understand your paranoia. As a new Private Pilot, I would have been terrified to declare an emergency. It was later I realized that the controllers are actually on your side. Saving/helping people is what they live for. Yes, I know there are some crusty old assholes out there who are bored and tired of watching some trike, and a C-150, and some light sport experimental whatchmacallit beat around the pattern all afternoon and they bitch because your radio sucks, but the moment you say, "I have an emergency", I guarantee you are his number one priority.Jim B.
Rule 1: It's illegal to kill ducks out of season or without an appropriate license and duck stamp.Rule 2: NEVER LAND A COMMERCIAL AIRLINER WITHOUT FLOATS, FULL OF PASSENGERS ON A RIVER WITHOUT THEIR WRITTEN APPROVAL.Rule 3: He busted his own flight plan.Rule 4: I'm sure there were many maritime rules, regulations and laws and codes that were busted.I'm not Sully was wrong in any shape or form. He was exactly right. He is my hero for being able to ignore the danged rules and do what he had to do which if "FLY THE PLANE AT ALL COSTS, IGNORE THE RULES and pay the fine later".The fellow that hit the power lines in the LSA broke the rules but still crashed. He should have broke the rules and landed safely.What rules did he break? It's illegal to hit power lines and/or disrupt power . . yahta yahta . . .Must we go on . . .?I think you folks are being way over sensitive to rules. Anytime one has an emergency, all rules become invalid and survival becomes paramount.OK these are just my rules, you guys should follow the rules to keep the rest of us safe from you. LOLBruce
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Jim Bair <jimbair@live.com> wrote:
61.65 first paragraph says Private Pilot is minimum rating. Knowledge of an IFR rating, absolutely. Just can't take the checkride.What rule did Sully break? I don't know of any? What are you referring to?Jim B.From: b dSent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:06 PMSubject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group IFR Training and IFR Rating for Sport PilotsWhat would prevent any Sport Pilot from gaining a IFR Rating or the knowledge of an IFR rating? Yes that would certainly help anyone. I don't see anything preventing a person from doing that if he has the money, the time, and the ability. Does anyone know something I don't know here? There is no one keeping me from doing it that I know of. I myself have IFR knowledge just in case although I prefer nice sunny days. One does not need to be certified to have knowledge and certainly certification shouldn't limit one either from using that knowledge. I'm always amazed at how certain people can always be so rule bound. It's good Sully wasn't.Bruce
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