Abid
--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, b d <gpabruce@...> wrote:
>
> If you're directing that at me, you're making my point. However the cost of
> labor is the cost of doing business. If the worker negotiates for $30 and
> hour, that's his value and that's what he deserves, not $1.84 because
> someone else doesn't value their own work any higher. Are we not going
> around in circles on this? The worker doesn't tell the company how much
> profit margin the company can have and the company has no right to do the
> same to the worker after he has negotiated the workers pay. The company owns
> the pen, they control the markup and profit margin you can say4x but it's
> arbitrary. It's what ever the company wants, what ever "supply and demand
> will bear, unlike workers wages. In the same breath, the workers neighbor
> has no business telling the worker that he's being paid too much. It's none
> of his business just like it's none of the CEO's business to tell the Union
> Leader that he's getting paid too much. If the workers are happy with their
> union bosses performances, that's their business not the companys. I'm not a
> union person myself, never worked for a collective bargaining unit. I do my
> own bargaining but I'm also not going to tell anyone they are getting paid
> too much after I see the pay the CEO's and their buddies get. If I were to
> give any advice to a worker, I'd tell those $1.84 Chinese workers they
> better get smart a lot faster and get what they can get as long as they can
> get it because the same thing will happen to them. The problem with Cessna
> and Continental is that they have no vision, thehave no innovation. They
> take our brightest kids from MIT and elsewhere and dumb them down to make
> the same old thing over and over just like the auto industry. We can blame
> it on the worker but we're wrong if we do. It's management. It's Wall
> street.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:49 PM, apollonorthamerica <
> apollonorthamerica@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Are you missing out all the overhead and management and liability costs
> > that each company pays per unit hour of worker wage for a product.
> > If a worker (labor) is getting paid $30/hour. Is that all the unit hour
> > cost of making the airplane that the worker is making? Hardly. I am not
> > going to go into details but generally if you are paying a worker $X, you
> > can easily multiply by 4 and that is the unit cost per hour of making that
> > plane not taking into account the materials or parts cost. In other words
> > the total cost per hour of assembling that plane is $4X.
> >
> > Abid
> >
> >
> > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com <Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > b d <gpabruce@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > In regards to what you said:
> > >
> > > *A LOT more goes into the production cost than just the $25 an hour*
> > > *the assemblers make. When I was building airplanes as a member of the*
> > > *same union (IAMAW) the company paid me ~$30/hr and charged the customer*
> > > *~$150/hr for my services.*
> > > *Rick*
> > >
> > > What you seem to be describing is normal business is it not? The "Cessna
> > > China" will do it slightely different. The same Americans now doing
> > business
> > > in China will pay their workers $1.84 and hour and charge the customer
> > > $150/hr. Yes?
> > >
> > > Out of curiosity,during the time you were getting the $30 per hour, did
> > you
> > > feel you were getting overpaid as some people have indicated? Do you feel
> > if
> > > you had accepted $1.84/hr, that Cessna would still be here in the US? Is
> > > that what American workers should do to keep their companies here?
> > >
> > > Did you feel the markup on your services was excessive?
> > >
> > > I once worked for a firm in LA CA several years ago (1990's) who was
> > > subcontracted several times to the client who was Saudi Aramco. I
> > negotiated
> > > for $100/hr and there were at least 4 parties between me and the client.
> > I
> > > always wondered how much the client was being billed and how much I was
> > > leaving on the table that I could have gotten. over and above what I
> > > negotiated for. I could have just as easily negotiated for $1.84/hr and
> > > they still would have billed the client the same rate. The difference
> > > between the $1.84/hr (Chinese wage) and what I negotiated for would have
> > > been left on the table had I negotiated "Chinese style" rather than
> > American
> > > style. Was I wrong? Am I thinking wrong? Am I one of theose terrible
> > > American workers that ran these poor businesses over seas? I would hate
> > to
> > > hear that if I did. LOL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Michael Huckle <m230683@>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > A LOT more goes into the production cost than just the $25 an hour
> > > > > > the assemblers make. When I was building airplanes as a member of
> > the
> > > > > > same union (IAMAW) the company paid me ~$30/hr and charged the
> > customer
> > > > > > ~$150/hr for my services.
> > > > > > > Rick
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for setting me straight.
> > > > > > I imagined it would be possible to make LSAs in USA,
> > > > > > selling them at 120k, and making 10k to 20k profit.
> > > > > > If we can't do that, we'll need to be grateful
> > > > > > to the Chinese Folk for helping us out.
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You're welcome Mike.
> > > > > But I don't know if it's "setting you straight". More like pointing
> > out
> > > > > some realities gleaned through experience instead of speculatin'.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your earlier post you had said:
> > > > > "If there's 400 man-hours in each airplane, at $15/hr that's $6000.
> > > > > (5% of the cost of the plane)
> > > > > ? Cessna couldn't afford $6000 labor for each airplane?"
> > > > >
> > > > > And you would be right IF there were only 400 hours of assembly @
> > only
> > > > > $15 an hour.
> > > > > Unfortunately (or maybe FORTUNATELY if you work for an aircraft
> > > > > manufacturer here in the USA) there is a LOT more invlved.
> > > > >
> > > > > BUT.... If YOU would like to teach me how to fly Trikes for $15 and
> > NOT
> > > > > charge me for the cost of YOUR trike, I might be willing to accept!!!
> > > > > ;)
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Rick
> > > >
> > > > It's okay Rick, I got your message before.
> > > > You estimated the Cessna LSA needs 1000 man-hours, and these men (or
> > women)
> > > > would need to earn 25/hour, and allowing for overheads that would be
> > > > 100/hr,
> > > > therefore,
> > > > total cost of labor for building each Cessna LSA in America would be
> > $100k,
> > > > hence the need for them to build it in China, saving themselves $71k
> > per
> > > > plane.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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