Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Trike Video - Slab City, California

Thanks Ralph for the feedback! I have about 240 hours on it now.

Cheers,

Damien

--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" <rstar447@...> wrote:
>
> Damien, I always enjoy your videos. That HKS is really working for you. How many hours do you have on it now?
>
> Ralph
>
> --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "tdrtw" <damber306@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Finally got this one finished from a trip out to Slab City just after
> > Xmas last year!
> >
> > http://vimeo.com/38983558 <http://vimeo.com/38983558>
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > Damien
> >
> > P.S. You can download the video in Windows Media format here ->
> >
> > http://www.emuvideo.com/videos.php?page=trike20111230
> > <http://www.emuvideo.com/videos.php?page=trike20111230>
> >
>

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Trike Video - Slab City, California

Damien, I always enjoy your videos. That HKS is really working for you. How many hours do you have on it now?

Ralph

--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "tdrtw" <damber306@...> wrote:
>
>
> Finally got this one finished from a trip out to Slab City just after
> Xmas last year!
>
> http://vimeo.com/38983558 <http://vimeo.com/38983558>
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Damien
>
> P.S. You can download the video in Windows Media format here ->
>
> http://www.emuvideo.com/videos.php?page=trike20111230
> <http://www.emuvideo.com/videos.php?page=trike20111230>
>

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Trike Video - Slab City, California

Finally got this one finished from a trip out to Slab City just after
Xmas last year!

http://vimeo.com/38983558

Enjoy!

Damien

P.S. You can download the video in Windows Media format here ->

http://www.emuvideo.com/videos.php?page=trike20111230

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Transponder Antenna install

Is there any legal reason why I can't install my transponder antenna on the TOP of the plane between the wings?

See, I have a challenger and the whole bottom of the plane is fabric with a few braces made out of aluminum. It seems like it would be MUCH easier to just drill a whole and install the antenna on the metal covering than making a grounding plane and riveting it to the braces under the plane.

Also, it would move the antenna further away from the occupants.

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Not good see such news

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Cessna_China_Business_Jets_206365-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Abid

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Exactly!  But I think the question (or one of them) was about the yaw created by aileron drag.   As you pointed out, the author of the article had yaw and drag so screwed up that it left the reader confused.  I was trying to address the adverse yaw that occurs on roll entry.  Your picture of what is happening lift wise is perfect.  The outboard tip going faster contributes to overbanking tendency (roll), but does not increase overall lift.

 

Jim Bair

 

From: James Ferris

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:10 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Let us make it real simple, draw a little circle that represents the airplans flying away from us. Now draw a verticle and horizontal axis, and say the wing is producing lift and draw a line 6 inches long straight up and put a small aerrow at the top. Now consider a left bank of 45 degrees and rotate the lift vector of the wing 45 degrees now this vector can be resolved into a vertical componet and a horizontal component   the length of each will be 6 inches (.707) or 4.24 inches. Now the horizontal componet is what causes the airplane to turn and the vertical componet of 4.25 is now the lift so the airplane cannot maintain altitude unless the we give it some up elevator to increase the angle of attack of the wing. The wing causes the airplane to turn and the rest of that stuff about the outboard wing tip fonig faster in not going to have much effect.

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

I agree with what James says below with one exception.  I disagree with #2 as well. That means #3 is the only correct statement in the entire article. #1 doesn't count, as it is simply a statement of the maneuver.  The left aileron doesn't go up to create drag, it goes up for exactly the same reason the right one goes down, but in an opposite way.  The right one goes down to create more lift, the left one goes up to destroy lift.  Not to increase drag.  The right aileron producing lift definitely creates more drag, and this is why the nose initially moves to the right if you neglect to step on the left rudder while rolling into the turn.  This article is filled with errors and is poorly written.  I suspect English as a second language may be part of the problem the author has.   Read what Richard wrote.  It's much more clear than the article you referenced, and it is correct.  Just out of curiosity, where did you find that author?  There are some good sources of info out there, this just isn't one of them.  Try "See How it Flies".  I think it's a pretty good aerodynamics primer and you don't need to be an engineer like James to read it. 

 

Jim Bair

 

From: James Ferris

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:40 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

I am an Aeronautical Engineer and worked in Aircraft Performamce Stability and control for tne National Aeronautics and Space Association for Thirty years and worked on the F-111, F-15 ,F-16 , F-17, F-18, B-1. ,B70,Saturn V,Space Shuttle and many others and am also a  Pilot. You have listed Seven  Items 1,2 and 3 are correct, in item 4 replace left wing with right wing wing and it will be correct, and this is why you use rudder to compensate in the turn.  Items 5 ,6 and 7are complete nonsense and the reason the aircraft turns is the Lift Vector that we had in level flight is divided into lift and a force to the left causing the aircraft to turn.                 

 

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Hi Jim,

--- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<

You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .

In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.

Alex

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Let us make it real simple, draw a little circle that represents the airplans flying away from us. Now draw a verticle and horizontal axis, and say the wing is producing lift and draw a line 6 inches long straight up and put a small aerrow at the top. Now consider a left bank of 45 degrees and rotate the lift vector of the wing 45 degrees now this vector can be resolved into a vertical componet and a horizontal component   the length of each will be 6 inches (.707) or 4.24 inches. Now the horizontal componet is what causes the airplane to turn and the vertical componet of 4.25 is now the lift so the airplane cannot maintain altitude unless the we give it some up elevator to increase the angle of attack of the wing. The wing causes the airplane to turn and the rest of that stuff about the outboard wing tip fonig faster in not going to have much effect.

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

I agree with what James says below with one exception.  I disagree with #2 as well. That means #3 is the only correct statement in the entire article. #1 doesn't count, as it is simply a statement of the maneuver.  The left aileron doesn't go up to create drag, it goes up for exactly the same reason the right one goes down, but in an opposite way.  The right one goes down to create more lift, the left one goes up to destroy lift.  Not to increase drag.  The right aileron producing lift definitely creates more drag, and this is why the nose initially moves to the right if you neglect to step on the left rudder while rolling into the turn.  This article is filled with errors and is poorly written.  I suspect English as a second language may be part of the problem the author has.   Read what Richard wrote.  It's much more clear than the article you referenced, and it is correct.  Just out of curiosity, where did you find that author?  There are some good sources of info out there, this just isn't one of them.  Try "See How it Flies".  I think it's a pretty good aerodynamics primer and you don't need to be an engineer like James to read it. 

 

Jim Bair

 

From: James Ferris

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:40 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

I am an Aeronautical Engineer and worked in Aircraft Performamce Stability and control for tne National Aeronautics and Space Association for Thirty years and worked on the F-111, F-15 ,F-16 , F-17, F-18, B-1. ,B70,Saturn V,Space Shuttle and many others and am also a  Pilot. You have listed Seven  Items 1,2 and 3 are correct, in item 4 replace left wing with right wing wing and it will be correct, and this is why you use rudder to compensate in the turn.  Items 5 ,6 and 7are complete nonsense and the reason the aircraft turns is the Lift Vector that we had in level flight is divided into lift and a force to the left causing the aircraft to turn.                 

 

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Hi Jim,

--- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<

You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .

In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.

Alex

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

I agree with what James says below with one exception.  I disagree with #2 as well. That means #3 is the only correct statement in the entire article. #1 doesn't count, as it is simply a statement of the maneuver.  The left aileron doesn't go up to create drag, it goes up for exactly the same reason the right one goes down, but in an opposite way.  The right one goes down to create more lift, the left one goes up to destroy lift.  Not to increase drag.  The right aileron producing lift definitely creates more drag, and this is why the nose initially moves to the right if you neglect to step on the left rudder while rolling into the turn.  This article is filled with errors and is poorly written.  I suspect English as a second language may be part of the problem the author has.   Read what Richard wrote.  It's much more clear than the article you referenced, and it is correct.  Just out of curiosity, where did you find that author?  There are some good sources of info out there, this just isn't one of them.  Try "See How it Flies".  I think it's a pretty good aerodynamics primer and you don't need to be an engineer like James to read it. 

 

Jim Bair

 

From: James Ferris

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:40 PM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

I am an Aeronautical Engineer and worked in Aircraft Performamce Stability and control for tne National Aeronautics and Space Association for Thirty years and worked on the F-111, F-15 ,F-16 , F-17, F-18, B-1. ,B70,Saturn V,Space Shuttle and many others and am also a  Pilot. You have listed Seven  Items 1,2 and 3 are correct, in item 4 replace left wing with right wing wing and it will be correct, and this is why you use rudder to compensate in the turn.  Items 5 ,6 and 7are complete nonsense and the reason the aircraft turns is the Lift Vector that we had in level flight is divided into lift and a force to the left causing the aircraft to turn.                 

 

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Hi Jim,

--- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<

You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .

In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.

Alex

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

I am an Aeronautical Engineer and worked in Aircraft Performamce Stability and control for tne National Aeronautics and Space Association for Thirty years and worked on the F-111, F-15 ,F-16 , F-17, F-18, B-1. ,B70,Saturn V,Space Shuttle and many others and am also a  Pilot. You have listed Seven  Items 1,2 and 3 are correct, in item 4 replace left wing with right wing wing and it will be correct, and this is why you use rudder to compensate in the turn.  Items 5 ,6 and 7are complete nonsense and the reason the aircraft turns is the Lift Vector that we had in level flight is divided into lift and a force to the left causing the aircraft to turn.                 

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

Hi Jim,

--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<

You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .

In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.

Alex

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Well what now???????  I am confused I think. Not even sure. I'm sure I can do it however.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone

-----Original message-----

From: circicirci <acensor@fastmail.fm>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Mar 19, 2012 19:23:12 GMT+00:00
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Hi Jim,


--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<


You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .



In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.


Alex









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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

circicirci,

Here is a better explanation.

When lift is produced, drag is produced
The more lift, the more drag.

The up aileron reduces lift, therefore less drag
The down aileron increases lift, therefore more drag

so a roll to the left tends to produce adverse yaw to the right (I.E. the nose
tends to turn away from the bank.)

The 'faster wing' concept only comes into play when the wing is actually in the
turn.

R. Williams

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "circicirci" <acensor@fastmail.fm>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:23:12 -0000
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide
sidewards) when you bank w/ no

> Hi Jim,
>
> --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote,
In part:
>
> > Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally
incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you
talk about is actually backwards.<
>
> You were referring to my earlier saying this:
> "I stand by my theory for now:
> Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less
> on the raised wing) creating the turning force.
>
> My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
> different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
> the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "
>
> ---
> Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing
> creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and
> credible company in believing that.
>
> See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to
> our files area.
>
> Or just go to --
> http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-
> aircraft-yaw/7209 .
>
> In part what it says there is --
>
> "1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
> 2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
> 3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
>
> 4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased
> lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right
> wing rolls upward.
> 5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up),
> the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to
> the production of lift.
> 6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two
> components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to
> roll in the desired direction.
> 7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively
> higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft
> yaw towards the left. "
>
> Sounds like basically what I said.
>
> The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good,
> and it makes sense to me. So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the
> lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.
>
> Alex
------- End of Original Message -------

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Hi Jim,

--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, you, "James Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote, In part:

> Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.<

You were referring to my earlier saying this:
"I stand by my theory for now:
Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does. "

---
Well I may be wrong about the raised aileron on the lowered wing creating more drag on that wing, but if so I'm in some pretty good and credible company in believing that.

See the file "Yaw when banking aircraft.doc " that I just uploaded to our files area.

Or just go to --
http://www.decodedscience.com/side-effect-of-rolling-an-airplane-aircraft-yaw/7209 .

In part what it says there is --

"1. An aircraft initiates a roll to its left.
2. The left aileron (attached to the wing) goes up to produce drag.
3. The right aileron moves downward to produce more lift.
4. As a consequence of increased drag on the left wing, and increased lift on the right wing, the left wing rolls downward while the right wing rolls upward.
5. During this phase (with the left wing down and the right wing up), the right wing travels faster through the air and contributes more to the production of lift.
6. This increased lift acts diagonally and is divided into two components. The horizontal component of lift enables an airplane to roll in the desired direction.
7. The increased production of lift due to the right wing's relatively higher airspeed and its aileron in down position induces an aircraft yaw towards the left. "

Sounds like basically what I said.

The aeronautical credentials of the author (see the site) are good, and it makes sense to me.
So, I'm sticking with the "more drag on the lowered wing is applying the yaw (turning) force" for now.

Alex

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: A posting style request? Maybe trim off multiple copies of reply

A. Censor,

I see/read 100-700 individual emails every day.
Such a count of emails does not hinder me at all.

However, I found that if I receive 'digests' of emails that it takes me much
longer to read all the emails because, then *I* would be searching through
digests looking for individual emails.

This way (individual emails) most emails are 'scan top of emails', click 'reply'
or click 'delete' or click 'save' and I'm on to the next email.
As you might guess, bottom posters are a significant delay in reading their email.

I.E.individual emails are much faster than spending my time scanning a digest,
looking for individual emails.

R. Williams

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "A. Censor" <acensor@fastmail.fm>
To: <Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:26:41 -0700
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: A posting style request? Maybe
trim off multiple copies of reply

> Hi Rich,
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm with Mike on this, one when he says "No, the simple (and sane)
> solution, is that every one trims their posts before sending."
>
> I'd just modify that to "if everyone would at least TRY to
> remember to trim their posts most of the time" and "if, not, at
> least put extra spaces way down at the bottom to separate your post
> from the next one that'll be in the digest."
>
> True it's a personal preference issue. And really it was just a long
> shot hope of mine, and it does take some conscious attention to do
> this. But I did figure pilots are, because they are pilots, really
> above average in their capability to pay attention to detail
>
> Obviously, me and Mike and a few others are in the minority opinion on
> this as far as I can see folks are still posting with replies-to-
> replies-to-replies-to-replies-to-replies hanging below their replies. <sigh>
> My mom used to say "it never hurts to ask." Not sure that's
> true .
>
> But, Rich, the count of emails increasing if us "digest" members
> switch to "individual emails" really _is_ an issue. If it
> wasn't I wouldn't have set my membership to "digest" in the
> first place. That's what digests are for ... for us folks who ( a )
> are already swamped in incoming mail, and ( b) makes it easier to find
> all related posts in our inboxes.
>
> There's also the issue (if folks keep posting their replies along
> with previous replies-to-replies-to-replies-to-replies without
> "trimming") of yahoogroups eventually exceeding our group's
> storage limit because of duplicate, triplicate, etc., posts in
> effectively in the archives.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>
> Re: A posting style request? Maybe trim off multiple copies of repli
> Posted by: "Michael Huckle" m230683@hotmail.com mikehuckle
> Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:46 am (PDT)
> >Posted by: "Richard Williams" rkwill@lewiscounty.com
> >>circicirci,
>
> >>There is a very simple solution to the problem.
> >>A few key clicks and you can be receiving individual emails.
> >>Then, no need to scan through reams of repetitive text to find the new content.
>
> >>Sure, your count of number of emails will increase, nothing wrong with that.
> >>R. Williams
>
> Mike wrote --
> >No, the simple (and sane) solution,
> >is that every one trims their posts before sending.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Mike
------- End of Original Message -------

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: A posting style request? Maybe trim off multiple copies of reply

Hi Rich,

Hi Mike,

 

I'm with Mike on this, one when he says "No, the simple (and sane) solution,
is that every one trims their posts before sending."

 

I'd just modify that to "if everyone would at least TRY to remember to trim their posts most of the time"

and "if, not, at least put extra spaces way down at the bottom to separate your post from the next one that'll be in the digest."

 

True it's a personal preference issue. And really it was just a long shot hope of mine,

and it does take some conscious attention to do this.

But I did figure pilots are, because they are pilots, really above average in their capability to pay attention to detail

 

Obviously, me and Mike and a few others are in the minority opinion on this as far as I can see folks are still posting with

replies-to-replies-to-replies-to-replies-to-replies hanging below their replies. <sigh>

My mom used to say "it never hurts to ask."  Not sure that's true  . 

 

 

But, Rich, the count of emails increasing if us "digest" members switch to "individual emails"

really  _is_ an issue. If it wasn't I wouldn't have set my membership to "digest" in the first place.

That's what digests are for ... for us folks who  ( a ) are already swamped in incoming mail,

and ( b) makes it easier to find all related posts in our inboxes.

 

  There's also the issue (if folks keep posting their replies along with previous replies-to-replies-to-replies-to-replies without "trimming")

of yahoogroups eventually exceeding our group's storage limit because of duplicate, triplicate, etc., posts in effectively in the archives.

 

Regards,

Alex

 

Re: A posting style request? Maybe trim off multiple copies of repli

Posted by: "Michael Huckle" m230683@hotmail.com mikehuckle

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:46 am (PDT)

>Posted by: "Richard Williams" rkwill@lewiscounty.com
>>circicirci,

>>There is a very simple solution to the problem.
>>A few key clicks and you can be receiving individual emails.
>>Then, no need to scan through reams of repetitive text to find the new content.

>>Sure, your count of number of emails will increase, nothing wrong with that.
>>R. Williams

Mike wrote --

>No, the simple (and sane) solution,
>is that every one trims their posts before sending.
>
>Thanks,
>Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group RE: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

> Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less

  >on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

,


Please see this:
http://www.splung.com/content/sid/2/page/circular

Go down to the two pictures of an airplane
and see the small arrow labeled "F"
on the second airplane picture.
That "F" is what causes the airplane to turn.
That "F" represents the force which we call
"the horizontal component of lift".
It only exists when the airplane is banked.

To some extent, the airplane did "slide" sideways.
Imagine the pilot was flying North and making a turn to West.

At the start of the turn his course was 360°.
After banking the craft, this "slide" causes the course to change to 355°.
Continued banking causes a slide from 355 to 350,
then 350 to 345,
and so on and so on,
until he levels the wing and continues flight on a course of 270°.
Mike

-------------

Oh ratz   ;-)   I can already sense the knives being sharpened.

The "slide" above -could- be defined by someone else
in -their- preferred way,
and then my usage would of course be wrong.

My usage above is more like when a politician "slides to the left",
meaning he moves towards the left.
Imagine you are walking  around an athletic track......
you make continuous small slides (or moves) to the left...
changing your course from 360 to 359 to 358 etc.

Bottom-line doesn't change.....
We turn by banking the wing and we bank the wing primarily with ailerons.
There are other controls used (primarily) for "speed and altitude"
control, namely "elevator and throttle".


Mike


.

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Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

> Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less
> on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

,


Please see this:
http://www.splung.com/content/sid/2/page/circular

Go down to the two pictures of an airplane
and see the small arrow labeled "F"
on the second airplane picture.
That "F" is what causes the airplane to turn.
That "F" represents the force which we call
"the horizontal component of lift".
It only exists when the airplane is banked.

To some extent, the airplane did "slide" sideways.
Imagine the pilot was flying North and making a turn to West.

At the start of the turn his course was 360°.
After banking the craft, this "slide" causes the course to change to 355°.
Continued banking causes a slide from 355 to 350,
then 350 to 345,
and so on and so on,
until he levels the wing and continues flight on a course of 270°.


Mike




.

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

You are right Alex.  A/C don't have needs.  They simply respond to the laws of physics.  Pilots have needs.  (We'll stick to the aeronautical needs only for this discussion.)  If you read the post you were referring to in those terms, it will make more sense.

 

Wings need 2 things to generate lift, and they need them both.  A/S and AOA.  Yes, a flat bottom curved on top wing will generate enough lift from Bernoullies alone to register on a sensitive scale, but not enough to be useful.  In general, wings need both A/S and AOA. 

 

Wings pull us to the inside of the turn because lift is being created in that direction (see previous posts on that subject ad nauseam), not because the inside wing is being dragged backwards by drag.  In fact, it's the outside wing with the down aileron at the beginning of the roll that has the increase in induced drag and gets dragged backwards and turns us opposite our direction of desired turn initially unless we use rudder to coordinate the roll into the turn.

 

Your final paragraph about the lowered and raised ailerons is either totally incorrect or is simply worded in a way you didn't mean, because the drag you talk about is actually backwards.

 

Jim Bair

 

From: A. Censor

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:13 AM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Hi R.

 

I don't understand your explanation.

I don't get that the aircraft "needs" to generate more lift.

Aircraft are not conscious and don't "need" or care about anything.

 

And even if the nose somehow drops of it's own violation or something I missed understanding I don't see how the dropping nose would do anything other than cause increase of airspeed and/or loss of altitude. Why should it cause a turn? I drop the nose all the time on descents and it never causes a turn.

So we'd have an aircraft sliding toward the side banked but – unless there's something causing a rotation of the fuselage around the vertical axis still no turn.

 

I stand by my theory for now:

> Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less
> on the raised wing) creating the turning force.
>
> My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
> different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
> the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does.

 

Alex

 

 

Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sideward) when you bank w/ no

Posted by: "Richard Williams" rkwill@lewiscounty.com rkwill98356

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:01 am (PDT)

circicirci,

The airplane needs to generate more lift,
It will try to generate the more lift by dropping the nose to speedup.
The dropping nose slides sideways along the angle of bank.
result... the airplane turns (and loses altitude).

R. Williams

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "circicirci" <acensor@fastmail.fm>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:53:46 -0000
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Why does it TURN (not just slide
sidewards) when you bank w/ no rudder?

> Hey Bill,
>
> Thanks for that question. I'd been thinking about that.
>
> To recap your question (which is below):
> In level flight without any rudder you bank. The plane turns to the
> side of the bank. The horizontal component of lift should slide the
> plane sidewards towards the side you have banked but continue to fly
> straight ahead but banked. It does not explain what makes the plane
> turn on a circular course. So what's making the plane TURN?
>
> Gary, I don't see how dihedral explains the plane _turning_ toward the
> side of the bank. All postive dihedral does is create a tendency for
> the plane to return to level flight if you let go of the controls.
> Negative creates a tendency for the plane to continue to roll further
> once you start a bank.
>
> Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less
> on the raised wing) creating the turning force.
>
> My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the
> different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on
> the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does.
>
> Alex

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Hi Alex,

I am assuming you are a fixed wing pilot, however there are a variety of experience levels and backgrounds on a forum like this, so I know it isn't safe to assume.  If you have access to a plane and are going flying soon, here is an exercise I would suggest.  Roll into a coordinated 30 deg AOB turn and be very conscious of where the controls were in S&L flight prior to entering the turn. Pay attention to what you need to do with the controls to roll into the AOB desired and keep the nose up and the ball centered.  All 3 axis will be used.  Once stabilized in the turn at your desired AOB, note the position of the controls.  The answer isn't precisely the same in all airplanes depending on their design.  Let us know where the stick is tilted.   There are 3 possible options:

 

A. Tilted in the direction of the turn

B. Neutral

C. Tilted away from the turn

 

You may be surprised at what you discover.  If you don't have access to a plane, want to take a guess at the answer?  Actually, you already have by your statement below that surely I must know its tilted in the direction of the turn.  Actually, I don't.  Convince me.

 

Jim Bair

 

From: A. Censor

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:04 AM

To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

 

 

Hi Jim,

 

Are you trying to make some point indirectly by your question to me without spelling it out?

(If so, it's completely blown by me)

Surely you already know without asking me that the aileron control (the stick) is tilted in the direction of the turn?

 

 

 

Re: Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no

Posted by: "Jim Bair" jimbair@live.com jim_bair

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:17 am (PDT)

 

Alex,
Where is your aileron control while stabilized in a turn?

Jim Bair

From: circicirci
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:53 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Why does it TURN (not just slide sidewards) when you bank w/ no rudder?

Hey Bill,

Thanks for that question. I'd been thinking about that.

To recap your question (which is below):
In level flight without any rudder you bank. The plane turns to the side of the bank. The horizontal component of lift should slide the plane sidewards towards the side you have banked but continue to fly straight ahead but banked. It does not explain what makes the plane turn on a circular course.
So what's making the plane TURN?

Gary, I don't see how dihedral explains the plane _turning_ toward the side of the bank. All postive dihedral does is create a tendency for the plane to return to level flight if you let go of the controls.
Negative creates a tendency for the plane to continue to roll further once you start a bank.

Somehow the bank must be creating more drag on the lower wing (or less on the raised wing) creating the turning force.

My guess is the raised aileron on the lower wing -- being in the different airflow of the upper wing surface -- creates MORE drag on the lower wing than the lowered aileron on the raised wing does.

Alex

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

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