Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question

Ralph,

Your first paragraph is quite good.
Then you really missed the boat with the second paragraph.

The wings are producing lift when ever the AOA is positive, even on symmetrical
airfoils. Gravity has nothing to do with the production of lift.
banking the airplane results in the lift vector being tilted toward the bank,
the amount of lift vector tilt is exactly in line with the amount of bank.

The tilted lift vector pulls the airplane toward the low wing (in a bank).
The elevator can ONLY modify the AOA. When in a bank, the increase in AOA
results in increased lift, which strengthens the pull into the turn (resulting
in a small turn radius).

When banking, the amount of the vertical lift component to overcome gravity is
reduced (due to part of the lift vector now having a horizontal component.)
Since the vertical lift to overcome gravity is no longer enough to keep the
airplane flying straight and level. This results in the nose dropping and
altitude loss. However, the falling nose results in a turn.
The use of the elevator is to increase the AOA, thereby increasing the total
lift. This increases both the horizontal and vertical components of the
'tilted' lift. When the lift is increased, the rate of descent is reduced and
the increased horizontal component of the lift vector pulls harder at the
airplane, thereby tightening the radius of the turn.

I.E. it is the wings banked that creates the turn.

The elevator can only modify the AOA.
The AOA modification can change the radius of the turn and the sink rate.
The rudder can only assure the airplane is pointed in the same direction it is
moving.
(note: knife edge banks exaborate(sp) certain side effects that are not being
discussed here)

Since more lift is needed in a turn to maintain altitude (the vertical component
of the lift needs to be increased which is one of the side effects of increasing
the AOA).
One side effect of being in a bank/turn is more lift is needed to maintain level
flight. The creation of more lift slows the airplane which reduces the lift.
To maintain level flight in the turn, the engine must produce more power.
(soaring conditions being ignored for this discussion)

R. Williams

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Ralph" <rstar447@yahoo.com>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:25:23 -0000
Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question

> The ailerons initially change the lift component on each wing and
> upsets the balance of lift and the airplane begins a change in
> directional heading. The elevator combined with rudder then keeps
> turning the aircraft. Once in a turn (if the aircraft is properly
> trimmed), all control surfaces can be neutralized and the aircraft
> will continue in a turn if it has neutral stability. Negative
> stability will continue causing the aircraft to steepen its turn.
> Positive stability will allow the aircraft to return to level flight.
> The dihedral effect enhances positive stability trying to keep the
> wings level.
>
> If an aircraft has a symmetrical airfoil and is flying sideways in
> knife edge flight, there is no lift on the wings. This is because
> gravity it pulling perpendicular to lift on the wings. What holds the
> airplane in the air is the side of fuselage and the rudder acting like
> the elevator. Notice aircraft like the Kolb have no side fuselage and
> cannot fly in knife-edge flight. This is what may have contributed to
> John Williamson's death when he was in a very steep turn low to the ground.
>
> Ralph
>
> --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote:
> >
> > It changes the ‘direction’, but I know what you are referring to. The
heading. Yes, I agree. So do the ailerons (the control surface you are
referring to) change the heading? Or does lift do it?
> >
> > So what exactly do the ailerons do?
> >
> > Jim Bair
> >
> > From: Ralph
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:20 PM
> > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> > The elevator does change the lift component, but it's the same for both
wings in level flight because there is an elevator on both the left and right
side of the aircraft. It doesn't change the direction of the aircraft until
something else unbalances the lift component of both wings. I can't imagine what
that control surface might be?
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > --- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, "James Bair" <jimbair@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It looks like Gary got busy doing something else or got tired. I think my
last question about the sum total lift of the ailerons may have been poorly
worded. If my questions are truly building block questions, the person answering
should get each one right. The down aileron provides lift up, the up aileron
provides lift down, and the net result is a roll around the longitudinal axis of
the airplane. So, the answer to the question was that there is not a net lifting
force, but simply a rolling force.
> > >
> > > So far we have:
> > > 1. Turns are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> > > 4. The direction of lift, or the lift vector, is controlled by the ailerons.
> > > 5. The ailerons provide no lifting force, simply a rolling force.
> > >
> > > It has been stated that turns are a result of lift being directed in the
horizontal. We have also figured out that the elevator, not the ailerons,
controls lift. If lift is zero, is it possible for a turn to take place? The
answer is, “No.”
> > >
> > > In the end, following a logical path, it becomes obvious that by asking
ourselves questions, we find that since lift is required to make a turn, and
ailerons do not control lift, only its direction, that ailerons do not make an
airplane turn. Therefore:
> > >
> > > 6. Since lift is required to make a turn (see #1), if we lower the lift to
zero by use of elevator (see 2&3), no turn will take place, no matter where we
place our lift vector. (see 4&5)
> > > 7. Although ailerons ‘appear’ to make us turn, what they really
do is to roll our lateral axis, basically the wings, in a new direction, and if
lift exists (and in 1 G flight as we usually find ourselves, it does) then, and
only then, we turn. If the lift is negative, and by pushing forward it certainly
could be, we would turn in the opposite direction.
> > >
> > > The point of this exercise is to learn more about how airplanes fly and
what our controls actually do and the real cause of turns and effect of control
inputs.
> > >
> > > Jim Bair
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Gary
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:46 PM
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Net lifting force changes.
> > >
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > >
> > > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 17:37:00 GMT+00:00
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > > LOL. Yes, or a checkride. You are doing quite well, BTW. What a surprise.
haha.
> > >
> > > So far we have:
> > > 1. Turns are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> > > 4. The direction of lift, or the lift vector, is controlled by the ailerons.
> > >
> > > One aileron goes up, the other down. Does the sum total of aileron
movement provide a net lifting force? Or simply a rolling force? (2 questions at
once. Hope you aren’t overloaded.)
> > >
> > > From: Gary
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:03 PM
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is like a bfr. I say the ailerons.
> > >
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > >
> > > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 16:50:50 GMT+00:00
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > > So far we have determined that turns (in the horizontal is the matter
under discussion. Turns in the vertical can also occur.):
> > > 1. are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> > >
> > > What control surface controls the direction the wings are pointed (i.e.,
the lift vector) in their possible range of right and left all the way from
straight up to straight down and all angles between?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Gary
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:40 AM
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes
> > >
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > >
> > > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 13:46:55 GMT+00:00
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it possible to control the lift the wing produces through a range from
positive lift (lift in an upward direction relative to the top of the wing) to
zero lift to negative lift (lift in a downward direction relative to the bottom
of the wing.) by moving the elevator?
> > >
> > > From: Gary N Orpe
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:49 AM
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Elevator
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:45 AM
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I’ll buy that. I am trying to develop a method for teaching this
concept to students and I need a willing participant. What I would like to try
is asking a series of questions and see where it takes us. But I need a
participant with an open mind and a desire to learn or if he already knows the
answer, help others learn. So, if you’re game I’ll ask some
questions. If you’re not, just don’t answer.
> > >
> > >
> > > What control surface controls the amount of lift the wings produce?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Gary
> > >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:41 AM
> > >
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Horizontal components of lift
> > >
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > >
> > > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, Mar 12, 2012 16:27:09 GMT+00:00
> > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > I am curious. What do you believe makes airplanes turn? You do not need to
mention any particular flight control in your answer if you don’t wish to.
If you wish to, that is fine, too.
> > >
> > > Jim Bair
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Gary N Orpe
> > >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:15 AM
> > >
> > > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I never mentioned the elevator
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > > -> -----Original Message-----
> > > -> From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > > -> [mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Huckle
> > > -> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:17 AM
> > > -> To: Sport Aircraft
> > > -> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > -> > Posted by: "Gary N Orpe" mailto:garyo%40bak.rr.com
> > > -> > Can anyone actually do this turn thing? Amazing.
> > > -> > Hahaha ;-)
> > > -> > Gary
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > -> ;-)
> > > -> Yes, try it for yourself Gary.....
> > > -> Fly North, and then turn either Northwest or West.
> > > ->
> > > -> (see if the elevator is your primary turn control) (I'm betting it's
> > > not.)
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > -> Mike
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > -> .
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > -> ------------------------------------
> > > ->
> > > -> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > > ->
> > >
> >
------- End of Original Message -------

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