If an aircraft has a symmetrical airfoil and is flying sideways in knife edge flight, there is no lift on the wings. This is because gravity it pulling perpendicular to lift on the wings. What holds the airplane in the air is the side of fuselage and the rudder acting like the elevator. Notice aircraft like the Kolb have no side fuselage and cannot fly in knife-edge flight. This is what may have contributed to John Williamson's death when he was in a very steep turn low to the ground.
Ralph
--- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bair" <jimbair@...> wrote:
>
> It changes the ‘direction’, but I know what you are referring to. The heading. Yes, I agree. So do the ailerons (the control surface you are referring to) change the heading? Or does lift do it?
>
> So what exactly do the ailerons do?
>
> Jim Bair
>
> From: Ralph
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:20 PM
> To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
>
>
> The elevator does change the lift component, but it's the same for both wings in level flight because there is an elevator on both the left and right side of the aircraft. It doesn't change the direction of the aircraft until something else unbalances the lift component of both wings. I can't imagine what that control surface might be?
>
> Ralph
>
> --- In mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com, "James Bair" <jimbair@> wrote:
> >
> > It looks like Gary got busy doing something else or got tired. I think my last question about the sum total lift of the ailerons may have been poorly worded. If my questions are truly building block questions, the person answering should get each one right. The down aileron provides lift up, the up aileron provides lift down, and the net result is a roll around the longitudinal axis of the airplane. So, the answer to the question was that there is not a net lifting force, but simply a rolling force.
> >
> > So far we have:
> > 1. Turns are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> > 4. The direction of lift, or the lift vector, is controlled by the ailerons.
> > 5. The ailerons provide no lifting force, simply a rolling force.
> >
> > It has been stated that turns are a result of lift being directed in the horizontal. We have also figured out that the elevator, not the ailerons, controls lift. If lift is zero, is it possible for a turn to take place? The answer is, “No.â€Â
> >
> > In the end, following a logical path, it becomes obvious that by asking ourselves questions, we find that since lift is required to make a turn, and ailerons do not control lift, only its direction, that ailerons do not make an airplane turn. Therefore:
> >
> > 6. Since lift is required to make a turn (see #1), if we lower the lift to zero by use of elevator (see 2&3), no turn will take place, no matter where we place our lift vector. (see 4&5)
> > 7. Although ailerons ‘appear’ to make us turn, what they really do is to roll our lateral axis, basically the wings, in a new direction, and if lift exists (and in 1 G flight as we usually find ourselves, it does) then, and only then, we turn. If the lift is negative, and by pushing forward it certainly could be, we would turn in the opposite direction.
> >
> > The point of this exercise is to learn more about how airplanes fly and what our controls actually do and the real cause of turns and effect of control inputs.
> >
> > Jim Bair
> >
> >
> > From: Gary
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:46 PM
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> > Net lifting force changes.
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> >
> > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 17:37:00 GMT+00:00
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> > LOL. Yes, or a checkride. You are doing quite well, BTW. What a surprise. haha.
> >
> > So far we have:
> > 1. Turns are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> > 4. The direction of lift, or the lift vector, is controlled by the ailerons.
> >
> > One aileron goes up, the other down. Does the sum total of aileron movement provide a net lifting force? Or simply a rolling force? (2 questions at once. Hope you aren’t overloaded.)
> >
> > From: Gary
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:03 PM
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> > This is like a bfr. I say the ailerons.
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> >
> > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 16:50:50 GMT+00:00
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> > So far we have determined that turns (in the horizontal is the matter under discussion. Turns in the vertical can also occur.):
> > 1. are caused by a horizontal component of lift.
> > 2. This lift is controlled by the elevator.
> > 3. This lift amount, or quantity, can be positive, negative, or zero.
> >
> > What control surface controls the direction the wings are pointed (i.e., the lift vector) in their possible range of right and left all the way from straight up to straight down and all angles between?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gary
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:40 AM
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> >
> > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 13:46:55 GMT+00:00
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> > Is it possible to control the lift the wing produces through a range from positive lift (lift in an upward direction relative to the top of the wing) to zero lift to negative lift (lift in a downward direction relative to the bottom of the wing.) by moving the elevator?
> >
> > From: Gary N Orpe
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:49 AM
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> > Elevator
> >
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bair
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:45 AM
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I’ll buy that. I am trying to develop a method for teaching this concept to students and I need a willing participant. What I would like to try is asking a series of questions and see where it takes us. But I need a participant with an open mind and a desire to learn or if he already knows the answer, help others learn. So, if you’re game I’ll ask some questions. If you’re not, just don’t answer.
> >
> >
> > What control surface controls the amount of lift the wings produce?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gary
> >
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:41 AM
> >
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Horizontal components of lift
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE Phone
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> >
> > From: James Bair <jimbair@>
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Mon, Mar 12, 2012 16:27:09 GMT+00:00
> > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > I am curious. What do you believe makes airplanes turn? You do not need to mention any particular flight control in your answer if you don’t wish to. If you wish to, that is fine, too.
> >
> > Jim Bair
> >
> >
> > From: Gary N Orpe
> >
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:15 AM
> >
> > To: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I never mentioned the elevator
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > -> -----Original Message-----
> > -> From: mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com
> > -> [mailto:mailto:Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Huckle
> > -> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:17 AM
> > -> To: Sport Aircraft
> > -> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: Answer to Rich's Question
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> > Posted by: "Gary N Orpe" mailto:garyo%40bak.rr.com
> > -> > Can anyone actually do this turn thing? Amazing.
> > -> > Hahaha ;-)
> > -> > Gary
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> ;-)
> > -> Yes, try it for yourself Gary.....
> > -> Fly North, and then turn either Northwest or West.
> > ->
> > -> (see if the elevator is your primary turn control) (I'm betting it's
> > not.)
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> Mike
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> .
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> ------------------------------------
> > ->
> > -> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->
> >
>
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