who wasn't opinionated. Gary likers his rag wings. I like my metal,
student-proof, flight school trainers. I'm sure you have your pet
planes as well.
As for moderating, I'm moderating as well and Gary and I will prove
checks of each other. Only e-mails we haven't let through are those
that are inflammatory, name calling, or personal attacks and at that,
we've let some of those through as well.
Helen
On 12/26/2010 1:44 PM, Rick Pitcher wrote:
> Yes Helen, I think you got it right. They ALL seem to advertise more than
> they can deliver.
>
> But I was really hoping to encourgae Gary to look at the data he has and see
> if MAYBE he is just a little biased. It seems like if he's wildly enamored
> with HIS aircraft choice, and always finds fault with anybody else's choice.
> When the moderator is biased against anything other than his own favorite
> choice, that's a sure-fire way to squelch any real discussions and people
> will leave the group if THEIR favorite choice is constantly being poo-poo'd
> by the moderator.
>
> I thought this was a forum for ALL light-sport aircraft. ?
>
> Rick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Helen Woods"<Helen_Woods@verizon.net>
> To:<Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group High Useful Load LSA Aircraft
> Models
>
>
>
>> Oh its certainly out there. I know about the Paradise because they
>> showed up here at the flight school to do a demo for us. I was
>> impressed and familiar with the plane from reading their web site. Well
>> when I met the salesman man, he started handling me his brochures and
>> I'm sure was about to show me the vanity mirror when I walked past him,
>> climbed into the plane and pulled out the W&B. Surprise, surprise.
>> Almost 100 pounds less than advertised. I turned around and asked him
>> about this only to watch a wonderful demonstration of hemming and hawing.
>>
>> The old Check (sp?) Airworks company I think took the cake on this
>> though. We had had a SportCruiser on the line for a while and as you'll
>> note I was a bit appaluled at some of the company's advertising
>> practices. (I noticed that Piper has finally corrected the numbers on
>> their web site instead of just quoting the previously published ones as
>> they did in their initial press release.) They advertised 600lbs of
>> useful load. They advertised their giant baggage area and wing lockers
>> and giant man size seats with the 600lb useful load to convince you that
>> this was a true "large man" plane. Funny thing was though, at shows,
>> they would never let you get into the plane. Instead they had a cockpit
>> mock up with stairs on the side to let large customers waddle up into
>> the plane and try out the giant seats. Well the reasoning was simple.
>> In addition to the actual plane having only 520-525lbs of useful load,
>> the whole plane would tip over if a giant man tried to climb in via the
>> step on the back of the plane! Giant men also did not have the
>> flexibility to reach the grab bar in the center of the plane to support
>> them when getting into the plane and instead would grab the backs of
>> the seats. Our seat back were broken within 300 hours.
>>
>> With the change in US leadership, Tecnam has gotten into this game too.
>> The new brochures they have on their web page sport an extra 25lbs on
>> their Sierra, 50lbs on their Eagles, and more than 100lbs on their
>> P2010! Tecnams are still great planes though IMHO. Just contact me
>> though if you really want to know the useful load.
>>
>> I honestly think a better discussion topic than "who advertises false
>> numbers" would be "who advertises accurate numbers." I think it safe to
>> assume that most people in this industry have inflated their numbers
>> unless proven otherwise.
>>
>> Helen
>>
>> On 12/26/2010 12:53 PM, Rick Pitcher wrote:
>>
>>> I kinda figured you meant composite, and yes, rag-wings are lighter.
>>>
>>> But I would like to see the "baloney" that Gary says comes from the
>>> "all-metal" camps. I haven't seen it myself, but I'm sure if
>>> moderator-Gary
>>> posts it as fact he must have some data to back it up. THAT will be
>>> interesting!
>>>
>>> Hope your cold gets better Helen,
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Helen Woods"<Helen_Woods@verizon.net>
>>> To:<Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group High Useful Load LSA
>>> Aircraft
>>> Models
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Oh, that should have been metal or composite... I think this head cold
>>>> has gotten the better of be this morning! Gary's right though that
>>>> Rotax rag-wings out there tend to have a good useful load.
>>>>
>>>> Helen
>>>>
>>>> On 12/26/2010 12:34 PM, Helen Woods wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Metal or aluminum, either can be built heavy or light. Tecnam and
>>>>> Remos
>>>>> have proven that.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a general rule though, anything with a O200 or amphibious floats is
>>>>> going to be heavy. As Gary mentions, a lot also has to do with what
>>>>> weight the plane was originally designed for. I though Cirrus was
>>>>> really on to something with their LSA as they bought a microlight that
>>>>> was rated for 1250 and was going to get an extra 70lbs out of going
>>>>> LSA. The current SportStar gets its good useful load from such a
>>>>> conversion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Helen
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/26/2010 12:16 PM, Rick Pitcher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Gary Orpe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a great point Helen. A real W&B sheet is in every plane
>>>>>>> legally.
>>>>>>> And there is a lot of bologna out there as well. Especially in the
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> metal camps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now THAT is interesting. Nice change from the rants of late. Thanks
>>>>>> Gary.
>>>>>> So tell us, which all-metal airplanes have you found that are full of
>>>>>> baloney? Maybe some links to their specifications page would be nice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know there are some big advantages in owning and maintaining
>>>>>> aluminum
>>>>>> airplanes as opposed to rag-and-tube or composite aircraft, mostly
>>>>>> having to
>>>>>> do with the ability to keep the planes out in the elements year
>>>>>> around.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> if you DO happen to damage your aluminum plane, there are mechanics in
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> airport that have years of experience with aluminum airplanes. It
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> an easy material to work with.
>>>>>> But I'd love to hear what your research has shown about the baloney in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "all metal camps".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
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>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>>
>>>
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>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>
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>>
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