\so much good discussion here, that I hate to snip it.
Helen,
For starters, I make in the 6 figure bracket, I'm not a spendthrift.
Yet, I could not afford to purchase and maintain a LSA, especially a E-LSA.
And my house did cost significantly less than the cost of a e-LSA.
The fact is, If I did not already have my 'fat' UL, converted into grandfathered
LSA, I would not be able to afford to fly any LSA.
I would be building/flying something like the schwartz minimum to fly.
And the SP rules have made the attainment of a SP certificate for myself an
extremely expensive, if not impossible goal.
I know you are making it in the SP/LSA business, but such as your self are very
few and far between.
Almost all the hundreds of UL instructors were made illegal via the SP/S-LSA
rules. Even the very few that have managed to keep their doors open, like
GoldenStateTrikes, who laid out over $17k to become a SP instructor. Not a
small sum and way out of alignment with the expected monetary returns.
I have noted that GoldenStateTrikes has laid out for two of the S-LSA trikes at
~$70k each. (which shows that just because the brand new aircraft has a S-LSA
certificate does not mean it will hold up like a old cessna)
As you know, the FAA fosted SP and LSA on the public, especially the public
flying (perhaps overweight) ULs, the story that SP/LSA would be the golden
necklace, even better than sliced bread.
The reality of SP/LSA, as you also know, is the destruction of the fastest
growing segment of the flying population, I.E. UL flying.
The numbers of flying public was growing with UL. Now, with SP/LSA the numbers
are again shrinking.
You did read the response to the FAA original NPRM(which they also wrote) and to
the comments about that NPRM saying "the FAA disagrees" (with anything that will
increase the numbers of the flying public.)
SO, yes, we are stuck with the abortion (SP/LSA).
And personally, for me, I was nice and 'legal' flying my UL. Then with the
stroke of a pen, the FAA made me and everyone like me 'illegal'.
While that has not grounded me, it sure put a damper on my
satisfaction/happiness with flying and it wiped several airports right off the
map, like the one where I actually learned to fly a UL, right off hwy 99 in
Turlock, CA.
When I was taught all about flying, including ADM, air;ports, airspace, etc, the
whole package was $1200.
Now, that $1200 (5-10 hours of todays' instruction), will not even get the
ground school.
FAA claims <== not equal ==> FAA reality
R. Williams
---------- Original Message -----------
From: Helen Woods <Helen_Woods@verizon.net>
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 07:50:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: sport pilot training in
challenger or quicksilver
> Oh, here we go yet again, crying over spilled milk. Is it just me or
> do others here violins playing when they open e-mails from this list?
> Come one guys. I know a lot of you had unrealistic expectations about
> what the sport pilot rule would look like when implemented but its
> time to get over it now.
>
> I can't tell you how much unrealized potential their is in this rule
> to bring new people into recreational aviation. Just stop by our
> place any sunny weekend and you'll find families picnicking, students
> learning, kids going up for rides, pilots of many generations hangar
> flying over the grill, airplanes and gyros flying, seaplanes being
> built (and soon splashing in) and so much more of what brought us all
> to aviation in the first place. And we've just touched the tip of the
> iceberg for what we can do under this rule.
>
> All I can say is that all of you who are stuck in your closets
> complaining about what sport pilot isn't are soooo missing out on all
> of what sport pilot *_is_*. It's time for you to stop crying and
> start building the nationwide infrastructure we need to grow sport
> pilot across this broad nation of ours.
>
> Helen
>
> On 5/31/2011 7:13 AM, Chop doc wrote:
> >
> >
> > Abid, that is my point exactly. The cost. How many people are able to
> > afford a new plane with full glass panels, moving map GPS, weather and
> > all the bells and whistles. You personally not wanting to climb into
> > an older aircraft is immaterial. The sport pilot and LSA's was suppose
> > to be for average people to be able to afford to fly without having to
> > obtian a medical or spend hours training to know everything a private
> > pilot must know. It was meant for the casual flyers yet it turns out
> > that it was mainly to stop the casual flyers in ultralights. To train
> > in a LSA is the same price as to train for a private pilots license if
> > not a bit more. So where is the attraction for the common working Joe
> > who always dreamed of flying?
> > As an A&P i can say that yes, there is some junk on the ramp that I
> > wont climb in either yet the age of an aircraft doesnt matter if the
> > aircraft has been properly maintained. I have seen some of the new
> > LSA's at the local airport and yes, I would love to climb in one and
> > try it out. I would also love to own one but realistically a 100K
> > aircraft will never be in the budget for myself or the majority of
> > people wanting to fly.
> > The argument has been kicked around many times of why dont CFI's teach
> > in LSA's and why most flight schools dont have LSA's to instruct in
> > and for the most part I believe it is realism is the root cause of
> > this. The average guy or gal who walks into a flight school and wants
> > to fly is going to weigh their options. On one hand they can become a
> > sport pilot and be restricted on what they can fly. If he or she cant
> > afford to buy one then the only chance to fly is when is the LSA is
> > free to rent and take up. Yet on the other hand they can fly the
> > little cessna or piper, log time and once he or she obtains their
> > certificate can go out and amd rent from about any airport or purchase
> > a plane just like he or she trained in from 15K to 25K. Or he can go
> > the sport pilot route and invest the price of their house in a new
> > plane. Either way the majority will go the full private route or walk
> > away entirely because of realism and that I believe is why most flight
> > schools wont buy a LSA and instruct in them and most people who want
> > to learn to fly wont go the sport pilot route.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Mon, 5/30/11, apollonorthamerica
> > /<apollonorthamerica@yahoo.com>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: apollonorthamerica <apollonorthamerica@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: sport pilot training
> > in challenger or quicksilver
> > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 9:08 PM
> >
> > Daniel,
> > I am not sure what your 24 years of experience in anything has any
> > relevance to the topic here.
> > Try and build a LSA like plane with a new engine and avionics even
> > without the hassle of compliance and let me know what it comes out
> > to be after you pay yourself $20/hour for labor and pay for the
> > place where you build it. Now add on to that cost, overhead,
> > profit, compliance cost and come up with your own numbers what a
> > manufacturer could sell an LSA for. Pretty simple.
> > In fact since you mentioned you are an A&P, you should be able to
> > add things up without building quite easily ($20k engine, $6k
> > avionics and so on). Shouldn't be hard for you. Things are what
> > they are. If we can't afford them, we can't afford them but having
> > the same old beaten to death discussion doesn't really help
> > anything and doesn't further any cause. There are a bunch of used
> > airplanes and people can buy them if they wish.
> > Personally I am not going flying in a 45 year old Cessna 152
> > sitting around at my airport. I do not think they are as airworthy
> > as LSAs are. Your mileage may vary.
> > Abid
> >
> > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > </mc/compose?to=Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com>, Chop doc
> > <chop_doc@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Am I comparing apples and oranges or is flying, flying. The
> > whole point is sport flying is not economical and flight schools
> > will never teach it when the average person cant afford to go the
> > supposedly cheaper route. What is the point in a flight school
> > investing in planes they can instruct sport pilot flying when they
> > wont be able to get their returns on versus teaching people for a
> > recreational or private pilot certificate. Whats the point for the
> > majority of people to invest in a time builder when it is far
> > cheaper to go the whole private pilot route vs the far more
> > expensive route. So is a 40 year old aircraft able to be used in
> > comparision in the context of this subject, I believe it is.
> > > I love all kinds of flying. I am an A&P with 24 years experience
> > as well as a private pilot and I am also building a Chilton DW-1.
> > I talk with a lot of people about flying all the time and i can
> > not in good conscience tell someone wanting to get into flying
> > that the sport pilot is the way to go. It is turning into a hobby
> > for the elite it seems and is far from what I always believed the
> > original purpose of it was, to promote flying and provide a
> > cheaper way to fly for the average person who doesn't earn 6 figures.
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 5/30/11, apollonorthamerica <apollonorthamerica@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: apollonorthamerica <apollonorthamerica@...>
> > > Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: sport pilot
> > training in challenger or quicksilver
> > > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > </mc/compose?to=Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 11:03 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Comparing prices of 40 year old planes to new planes does not
> > hold any logic. I would like you to go find yourself a brand new
> > Cessna and then compare it to a brand new LSA.
> > >
> > > The Tomohawk that you picked up for $6,900.00 in the depressed
> > economy is someone's desperation but please tell us how did your
> > first annual go. How many hours are on it?
> > >
> > > I do not think there is any reason to think that a CFI whether
> > teaching private or SP should not charge the same rate. You are
> > about as likely to put the CFI in private in danger as you are the
> > CFI in the SP course. SP generally takes about 50 to 60 percent of
> > the hours of a private license to finish. That's where the entry
> > is cheaper not per hour charge.
> > >
> > > Abid
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > </mc/compose?to=Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com>, Chop doc
> > <chop_doc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > For the CFI to charge $125 and supply the ELSA, yes he can get
> > away with it for he is upfront that his rate is $125/hr for him to
> > teach a person to fly. But here is what gets me. I can rent a
> > Cessna 152 for $93/hr and have an instructor for $30/hr which is
> > $123/hr. The light sport was suppose to be a cheaper way for the
> > common person to be able to fly yet the industry wants full price
> > for it so it actually negates going the sport pilot route. Then
> > you look at the price they are wanting for the planes, even if its
> > self built. I can pick up a cessna 152 for 14K or a grumman AA-1A
> > for 12,500 on barnstormers right now. Go to the airports and see
> > the for sale tags on the planes and you can find good deals. I
> > bought a tomahawk two years ago for $6,900. Where is in incentive
> > for people to get into sport flying when the price is so
> > astronomical? There is none that I see unless your talented and
> > have the time and the room to scratch build a plane and go the
> > > route
> > >
> > > > of a VW engine or motorcycle engine. Thats why the sport
> > pilots never really caught on. It is actually cheaper to go the
> > route of recreational or private pilot and rent a plane when you
> > want to fly.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Daniel
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 5/29/11, Alex <acensor@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > From: Alex <acensor@>
> > >
> > > > Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Re: sport pilot
> > training in challenger or quicksilver
> > >
> > > > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > </mc/compose?to=Sport_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >
> > > > Date: Sunday, May 29, 2011, 9:11 AM
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > There's a sport pilot training school is California still
> > doing sport pilot training in ELSA Challengers.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > The CFI wrote this to me months ago:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > "Thanks for inquiring into flight training with me at my
> > flight school. As you may know, the FAA phased out training in
> > experimental aircraft, unless it's the owner's aircraft.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > So I charge $125/hr. for a one-hour lesson, but the plane
> > flying is free. That way, the FAA can't say I'm charging for the
> > use of my plane. "
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I think he may be on very gray ground but for now he's doing it.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Write me for contact info.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > GENERALLY unless you are near one of the few FBOs that have a
> > newer expensive SLSA for training/rental use the door to sport
> > pilot training is hard to find unless you own your own ELSA or
> > amature built LSA and can find a CFI that's comfortable using it
> > as a trainer.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >  That's surely part of the reason there are so very few
> > people coming into aviation via the sport pilot route. It has in
> > my opinion prettty much been a failure if its purpose was to
> > open the door to flying to more wannabe pilots. There are only
> > about 4000 people who have come into flying by getting a sport
> > pilot license. According to one of the sport pilot specialist
> > advisors at EAA as many as 2000 are former previously experienced
> > ultralight pilots who were able to get their UL hours and
> > experience grandfarthered in and creditied toward getting sport
> > pilot certified.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >  ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > On the other hand if the sport pilot rule was intended (as
> > some suggest) to put a damper on UL flying it has succeeded
> > wonderfully. It is impossible for someone to go out today and
> > buy or build a part 103 UL and get any low cost  training...
> > as it used to be possible There are no more two seat ultralight
> > trainers, no more BFI's (basic flight instructors). It is
> > also very very difficult, even at the much higher standard
> > CFI training rates, to get _any_ training suitable to get a
> > complete newbie set up to strap into a single seat part 103 UL and
> > takeoff. Statistics are as far as I know difficult to get, but it
> > is certain that since the sport pilot rule killed two seat UL
> > trainers and BFI's off there are practically no new pilots coming
> > into flying via the UL route and after the current generation of
> > remaining UL pilots die off, retire from flying UL flying will be
> > a tiny fraction of what it was pre 2004.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > So, whether putting a damper on UL was intended or an
> > unintended consequence of the sport pilot rules, having closed
> > the door to UL on net the sport pilot certification as likely
> > reduced the flow of folks into aviation in the USA.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Alex
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
------- End of Original Message -------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
Sport_Aircraft-digest@yahoogroups.com
Sport_Aircraft-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Sport_Aircraft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
