Gary O.
N181RL
661 746-4780
-----Original Message-----
From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Helen Woods
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:28 AM
To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Getting your new S-LSA homeI'm not a glider pilot so I'm not versed enough on the regs to know more
than the club rules. (I had a student once who was with a local glider
club so I spent some time researching those.)
I certainly agree that there's a lot of gray area associated with a
ferry flight such as you describe. The questions I always ask myself
though are, if something should happen during this flight, would my very
conservative FSDO agree with my interpretation of the rules? Would my
insurance company (that hates having to pay out) agree with my
interpretation of the rules? One has to be happy with the answer to
both of those questions before undertaking a flight that might be
consider gray with in the rules.
Helen
Jim Bair wrote:
>
>
> Hi Helen,
> As I have understood it, a glider club is treated differently than a
> commercial operation. A club could be you and I taking turns towing
> each other and that is no problem. The problem was, a PP towing at a
> commercial operation getting flight time as compensation. At least
> that's how it was described to us at examiner school. If 61.113g has
> changed that, that's cool as far as I'm concerned. I just looked on
> some Q&A site and their answer didn't exactly clarify it for me.
> Thanks for pointing that out. So my question now is, can a PP fly for
> free for a commercial glider operation or is he restricted to clubs?
>
> As to the commercial operation question, I, as a commercial pilot,
> give sightseeing rides all day long because I am returning to the same
> point I took off from. What I can't do, except on a very limited
> basis and hoop jumping, is fly someone to another airport and drop him
> off for pay using the example you provided, of running an ad to offer
> air taxi service. That whole thing is more complex and goes beyond
> the scope of our original discussion about a PP ferrying an airplane.
> From a purely legal standpoint you may very well be correct that the
> FAA could press that the PP is receiving compensation in the form of
> flight time. I'm saying that in reality, for all practical purposes,
> a one time flight for a friend would not be noticed and no one would
> care and it would be extremely difficult to prove. I fly a friend's
> plane all the time. He even put me on his insurance. If he was at
> his cabin up north and asked me to bring his plane up, am I ferrying a
> plane, or simply borrowing it and having a fun x/c? However, if my
> logbook is filled with cross countries in various planes, that would
> look, feel, and smell like a ferry operation. Agree? Disagree? This
> is good food for thought because my son (PP ASEL) volunteered to bring
> a friend's plane back from the East Coast because his buddy was too
> busy. They ended up trailering it anyway, but it was discussed. My
> gut feeling is that he could have been ramp checked at every gas stop
> and not had a problem. What do you think?
>
> Jim
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Helen Woods <mailto:Helen_Woods@verizon.net >
> *To:* Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. >com
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:51 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Getting your new
> S-LSA home
>
>
>
> There actually is an exemption to allow a PP associated with a glider
> club to fly the tow plane legally (61.113(g)) and still log the
> flight
> time. The friend bringing the LSA home though does not have an
> exemption though and hence cannot bring the LSA home (and log the
> time
> or accept any other sort of compensation) unless he has a commercial
> pilot certificate and 2nd class medical. (A simple work around for
> this
> would be to make the friend a co-owner of the plane, in which case
> he's
> bringing his own plane home rather than some else's.)
>
> I think what you are confusing this rule with are the commercial
> rules
> associated with "holding out." A commercial pilot can be paid by his
> friend to take him some where but can't put an ad in the paper to
> offer
> air taxi service without an operators (135) permit.
>
> Helen
>
> Jim Bair wrote:
> >
> >
> > Good explanation, Helen. An example I heard of was a PP offering
> his
> > services to a glider club for free thinking they were bypassing the
> > commercial requirement. What Helen says is true, it was deemed that
> > the flight time had value and was therefore, compensation in
> itself.
> >
> > If you go pick up an airplane for a friend and bring it back
> home for
> > him, I don't see a problem there. However, if you put an ad in the
> > paper offering to fly for free, the intent is different. Make
> sense?
> > The young man at the glider club was obviously building time at a
> > commercial operation.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Helen Woods <mailto:Helen_Woods@verizon.net
> <mailto:Helen_Woods%40verizon. net>>
> > *To:* Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:Sport_Aircraft% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > <mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:Sport_Aircraft% 40yahoogroups. com>>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:06 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Getting your new
> > S-LSA home
> >
> >
> >
> > Because they are receiving compensation, either in the form of
> > payment,
> > expenses being covered, or flight time. (Yes, the FAA even considers
> > the logging of flight time to be compensation.)
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > Ralph wrote:
> > >> Helen Woods <Helen_Woods@...> wrote
> > >> Option 2: The dealer should be able to recommend a ferry pilot
> > to >hire. If not, call me at the office 410-604-1717 and I'll fix
> > you up >with one. Ferry pilots need to be commercial pilots with a
> > 2nd class
> > >> medical. They also need to meet whatever requirement your
> insurance
> > >> company places on them for time in type, but again, the dealer
> > >should be able to provide that to them.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Helen, why do ferry pilots need to have a commercial ticket? I
> > would think any Sport Pilot checked out in that aircraft with
> > x-country experience could ferry it.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:Sport_Aircraft% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > <mailto:Sport_Aircraft% 40yahoogroups. com>, Helen Woods
> > <Helen_Woods@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Bill, you have three options.
> > >>
> > >> 1. Get current and fly it home yourself
> > >> 2. Hire a ferry pilot
> > >> 3. Hire a flight instructor to go with you and give you
> > instruction in
> > >> your plane on the way home
> > >>
> > >> Option 1: You should probably get current at home before
> > heading down
> > >> to the factory. If there isn't an LSA for rent in your area,
> > get enough
> > >> ground and dual in whatever small plane you can rent to start
> > rubbing as
> > >> much rust off as possible. That way you'll be able to
> minimize the
> > >> flight training needed when you get to the dealer. Any dealer
> > worth his
> > >> salt should be able to offer you enough dual to get you through
> > a BFR as
> > >> well as the time in type required by your insurance company for
> > you to
> > >> fly your new plane. Your insurance company is going to be the big
> > >> dictator of what you need and from whom. You'll likely be
> > required by
> > >> the insurance company to get several hours of dual in type
> > before being
> > >> able to fly it home even if you are current.
> > >>
> > >> Option 2: The dealer should be able to recommend a ferry pilot
> > to hire.
> > >> If not, call me at the office 410-604-1717 and I'll fix you up
> > with
> > >> one. Ferry pilots need to be commercial pilots with a 2nd class
> > >> medical. They also need to meet whatever requirement your
> > insurance
> > >> company places on them for time in type, but again, the dealer
> > should be
> > >> able to provide that to them.
> > >>
> > >> Option 3: I'd recommend this one as you'll get your plane home
> > this way,
> > >> learn your plane well on the way home, and brush up on your
> > rusty cross
> > >> country skills. You are probably best to hire a CFI with a 2nd
> > class
> > >> medical because it could get really gray with the FAA as to
> > whether the
> > >> CFI is acting as an instructor or ferry pilot. Fortunately, these
> > >> aren't hard to find. (Again give me a call if you have a
> > problem in
> > >> this area.) The dealer should be able to get your CFI checked
> > out to
> > >> meet your insurance requirements.
> > >>
> > >> Hope this helps.
> > >>
> > >> Helen
> > >>
> > >> billhobson@... wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Let's say I find an S-LSA I want to buy. I go see it and
> > negotiate a price. Let's also say I'm a private pilot with a
> > current medical, but I haven't had a BFR for a looong time (but I
> > have been getting some dual in a local 4-place airplane). How do I
> > get the S-LSA home? (I DO have a valid driver's license.) Can I
> > fly it home? Who checks me out in it? Do they endorse my log book
> > as being cleared to fly it? It's so confusing for us old farts.
> > Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>
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