Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Flight Training Recommendation

My point exactly. Just as an FYI, our most recent graduate was a
private pilot. He had 50 hours and not including "outside expenses"
like the examiner fee, spent $7K on his ticket with us doing his
training in an LSA - no sim.

Helen

On 5/9/2012 10:41 AM, Jim Bair wrote:
> I think the more technical the flying, the more valuable the sim is. I have
> a fairly extensive background in terms of flying and simulator experience.
> For something like trike flying or hang gliding, there are basically no
> instruments required. It is totally a feel type of flying. Simulators are
> of really limited value for flying like that. As we move up the scale to
> flying an airliner, simulators have much more value especially as full
> motion and awesome visual have been developed. I have type ratings in the
> 777 and 747 prior to ever flying the actual airplane. 100% of the training
> was done in the sim and my first time on the controls of the actual plane I
> was hauling actual passengers. No, I did not make a PA announcement to let
> them know that the pilot flying was making his first landing in the airplane
> today. haha. My point is, there is a graduated scale in between those two
> extremes where simulators have value, and that value will continue to
> increase as the simulator technology increases. In flying fighters, it is a
> combination of hands on stick and rudder skills that is much more dynamic
> than simply the stick and rudder skills of landing a 747 in a 50 knot
> crosswind (I have done that in the sim, would hate to do it in real life).
> Where a sim has real value in F-16 type of flying is learning systems,
> practicing emergencies and procedures, learning to operate weapons systems,
> and practicing instrument approaches. For actual air-air fighting using
> guns, not so much value.
>
> All that brings us to SP/PP training. Like I said above, it's a sliding
> scale that goes from basically zero value in a hang glider to lots of value
> in a modern 747 simulator. Picture what skills a SP needs and figure it out
> for yourself where he fits on the scale. Do the same for a PP. A PP needs
> some hood time and night time. Might a sim be useful for that? I would say
> quite possibly. What does a SP need? Any instrument time? No. Night
> time? No. Crosswind landing skills? Yes. The ability to land in a
> pasture with an engine failure and judge and plan a glideslope to actually
> hit it? Yes. Any complex systems to manage or emergency procedures to
> manage? Not so much.
>
> I'm having trouble picturing much value for a SP. It would be added
> training, not replacing the airplane. I would have to actually see the sim
> to be convinced, but I've flown some pretty expensive sims that cost almost
> as much as an airplane. Their value was that they didn't burn fuel and you
> could put them in a situation you wouldn't want to be in in real life.
> (Engine fire, failure on liftoff in fog and mountains, low altitude
> windshear, etc.)
>
> I looked in my logbook and I completed my PP with 40.5 hours. No sim. I
> don't see a student finishing in 45 hours as being anything extraordinary.
> I think the reason most people take longer comes from 2 things. Time in
> training (stretch it out between flights, progress is slower) and motivation
> of the student. I took my training with a bunch of like minded future
> military pilots. Motivation wasn't an issue. And sims would have added a
> bit of value for doing instrument training. Much of that can be done while
> droning along on a cross country anyway. That said, I do agree that sims
> are coming along and will have more and more value especially as the
> airplanes become more and more technical. I would be interested in seeing
> their operation.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Bruce Jones
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 7:21 AM
> To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group Flight Training Recommendation
>
> Helen& Charles,
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree. Both of you sound like you are advocating
> an either or scenario, like there is a choice between learning to fly in a
> sim or an aircraft. Clearly, I am advocating both for any kind of flying,
> including Sport Pilot. To me it is very simple, if you take a willing victim
> and train him to Sport Pilot standards in say, 30 hours, will he be a better
> pilot if in that 30 hours is interspersed with 10 hours of additional sim
> time. In my view the answer is, absolutely.
>
> In a full motion sim if you want to fly seat of the pants - cover the
> instruments. There will still be some benefit. And for emergency procedures,
> spin training, radio familiarity, etc., etc., the sim is advantageous.
>
> At Redbird yesterday a student completed his PP check-ride (they only use
> outside examiners) with 45 hours of actual flight time. I don't know how
> many sim hours he had, but without the sim experience it would have taken
> him a lot more time. So, Helen, there is your answer - they are not using
> deposits and refund refusals to fund other students.
>
> I've been flying for over 40 years and in all that time this is by far the
> most effective, professionally run and advanced flight school I've ever
> encountered. And at less than half the cost of some LSAs a Redbird full
> motion sim should be part of the arsenal at every flight school. It's the
> way of the future...
>
>
> L. Bruce Jones, CEO
> U.S. Submarines, Inc. • Triton Submarines LLC
> Poseidon Undersea Resorts (Fiji) LLC
> U.S. Submarine Structures LLC
> E-mail: bruce@ussubmarines.com
> Tel: +1 208/687-9057
>
>
>
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